JFJ Forums - Behold The Man

Isaiah 53 (New International Version)

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

[Baptistic: picture omitted]

Isaiah 53 (New International Version)

[...]

After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
[b]by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

[...]

Jesus Christ the servant of God, equal with God:

Philippians 2 - 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

A compelling picture of Jesus Christ our sacrifice without blemish is found in Leviticus 1, 2, 3, 4:

Y'shua Messhiach, the sweet savor to God:
The burnt offering - what God sees in Christ (Lev. 1)
The meal offering - the wholesome personality of Christ (Lev. 2)
The peace offering - Christ is our peace with God (Lev. 3)
Y'shua Messhiach, the righteous made sin for us, carrying away our sin:
The sin offering - nature of sin (Lev. 4)
The trespass offering - act of sin (Lev. 5)

Do you see the implications of the Holy Spirit in Isaiah 53 identifying the Messiah as righteous for the purpose of justification of the lost?  How can any person except God Almighty be both righteous and able to justify the iniquities of sinners?  God became man.  The Lord Jesus Christ, the God-man:

Revelation 1

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.  7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, ... was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: ...

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.  14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.  16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; ...

Revelation 2

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

...

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

...

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

...

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

...

Revelation 3

1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; ... 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.  5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

...

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.  ... 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.  16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.  ... 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 12

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.  10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

They overcame by the righteous Overcomer's blood, and their testimony did not deny the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, aka the servant of God, the eternal Son in the Godhead.  Jesus Christ from everlasting to everlasting, from the vanishing point to the vanishing point, the Almighty.

Our witness matters.  Are your sins washed in the blood of the Lamb?  Are you true to the testimony of Jesus?  We are called to love not our lives unto the death.  Do not die for the lie that claims Jesus is not God, however that is explained by the liar.

The Spirit and the Bride say, come.  The Lord Jesus Christ is worthy to be believed.

Baptistic Wrote:

How can any person except God Almighty be both righteous and able to justify the iniquities of sinners?

I did not phrase this right. God does not justify the iniquities of sinners. I meant to say:

How can any person except God Almighty be both righteous and able to justify sinners and bear their iniquities?

Baptistic Wrote:

Philippians 2 - 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

That says it all! :-)

The reason I like that picture is that its unlike so many others. What I mean is that most pictures we see of Christ are beautiful - yet the scriptures tell us otherwise.

"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him"

Good reply...

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

Baptistic Wrote:

Philippians 2 - 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

That says it all! :-)

The reason I like that picture is that its unlike so many others. What I mean is that most pictures we see of Christ are beautiful - yet the scriptures tell us otherwise.

"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him"

Good reply...

Baptistic: Did Jesus Christ need to be beautiful and majestic to be the eternal Son coequal with the Father? This scripture from Philippians tells us that Christ was equal with God, even in His servanthood. You disagree, having taken it out of context. So why omit the substance of my actual reply here and then pronounce it a good reply?

Here is the background of your claims on this subject and my responses, found in Made Himself Nothing. You have had nothing to say on these, and I believe it is because you have no answer apart from categorically rejecting the Word of the Father.

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

Baptistic Wrote:

Baptistic Wrote:
[ ... ]
I think the trinitarians are having less of a hard time with this one than you are. You have put yourself in the position of calling Jesus a heretic, because He plainly stated, during His earthly ministry, "Before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews, then, understood what He was claiming. You, as of yet, do not. Consider the scripture you quote in light of the claim of Jesus.

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

It would be good if you read what I posted before replying.

NOTE:

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:
[ ... ]However, seeing how the above scripture tells us that He became nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, shouldn’t we then reason that He had emptied Himself of His divine nature – deity?

Baptistic Wrote:

Jack, [ ... ] it is very important that, where you maintain your conviction that Jesus is God, you not leave out the other part of your conviction. [ ... ] From the thread Denying Jesus:

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:
[ ... ]
When I said that Jesus isn’t God I was simply saying that He isn’t the Supreme Being. In other words, He isn’t the Godhead.

Truth is, Jesus has His Father's nature thus He is in very nature God.
[ ... ]
I wasn’t referring to His nature.

Jack, [ ... ]

But the main thing you're talking about here is whether Jesus emptied Himself of His divine nature.

One question I would ask of you is, if Jesus emptied Himself of His divine nature, what is the purpose of having His Father's nature instead?  Do you maintain that there is a second or subordinate divine nature?

Now, concerning the scripture you quote from Philippians 2, here are verses 5-11:

KJV  5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.  9  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:  10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The apostle Paul is talking to the Philippian Christians about the importance of avoiding high-mindedness.  To impress upon them, he uses the most extreme and obvious contrast anyone could draw, that of Christ; Who, though He knew He was equal with God, did not "throw His weight around," but for our sakes became a servant (of God, not of man) and became obedient even unto the death on the cross.

Following the apostle's approach, there is no reasoning applied here that Christ emptied Himself of His divine nature (or else Christians might be exhorted to empty themselves of their natures, which we cannot do), but rather the reasoning follows, in addressing "mindedness," that He emptied Himself of His divine prerogatives (and likewise we can empty ourselves of our perceived prerogatives in dealing with each other (v.3)).  That is where His humility and obedience take on meaning.  If He had not done so, there would have been no cross in His future, and we would have no redemption today.  Indeed, there would have been no Law at all either, because the blood of animals does not take away sin and redeem man--from the Garden (and before the world began) there was always the coming Redeemer in view.

Jack, you simply fail to address the implications of the Cross, when you maintain this dual, false claim concerning Jesus Christ.

Baptistic Wrote:

Jack, you simply fail to address the implications of the Cross, when you maintain this dual, false claim concerning Jesus Christ.

Why are you always looking for faults Baptistic? Did God appoint you judge over me? Do you have any idea how you make me feel when I login here and have you attack everything I share? Are you doing it on purpose or do you simply not care about Your fellow man? Why not give it a rest and let God be true and every man a liar? It will do you good!

Anyone can bring someone down, but to build someone up takes something special... I wonder, do you have what it takes to build someone up?

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

Baptistic Wrote:

Jack, you simply fail to address the implications of the Cross, when you maintain this dual, false claim concerning Jesus Christ.

Why are you always looking for faults Baptistic?

Baptistic:  I am testing the spirit(s) behind your theology:  1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Did God appoint you judge over me?

Baptistic:  I believe my approach toward you is scriptural:  1 Corinthians 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?  Paul is talking about Christians suing Christians in court, but a case can be made you have tried to take Christians here to the court of your own persuasion, which persuasion is contrary to what is proclaimed at Jews for Jesus.  You are simply hearing my responsive pleadings.

Do you have any idea how you make me feel when I login here and have you attack everything I share?

Baptistic:  My responses seem like attacks to you because they are an appropriate response to what you have been attempting to do here.  In Revelation 2:20, the Lord Jesus Christ rebukes one of the churches for allowing a false teacher to lead them into false worship.  Below (from Denying Jesus) in green is a good example of what could be characterized by the saints as an attack by you, rather than simply sharing on your part:

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

Doesn’t God teach you people?
Is He in your world at all?

It’s as if you need someone to teach you the very basics of the faith.

Jesus Christ was sent by His Father to be our savior. He isn’t the Father!
Get back into God’s word people because like I said, it’s shameful to see how your twisting God’s Holy Word.

As for me, I’ve known both the Father and His Son and I can tell you with all confidence that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God the Father at this very moment and that Jesus isn’t the Father.

There is one God – The Father.
Jesus has the same nature as His Father (Godship) but He Himself isn’t God. Or don’t you know that the Father is placing all things under the Son and that once all things have been placed under the Son that He Himself will be subject to the Father.

Who is teaching you people? Because your obviously not in the faith!

Man it’s as if 100 weeds pop up as soon as one true believer shows up. Sad thing about it is that your being deceived and are now deceiving others into believing your little theories.

If you knew the scriptures you would agree with me, and I hope that at least one person in this whole forum is going to agree with the scriptures.

[ ... ]

Those of you who have web sites had better go back and edit your statement of faith because like I said, your clearly not in the faith!!!

[ ...] So believe the scriptures and turn away from those who are deceiving you. And for God’s sake, stop deceiving my brothers!

Baptistic:  If you feel like you're being found with fault, or judged, or attacked, could it have been something you said?

Now, if you allow that someone is trying to communicate something to you, you will understand why it comes across strong from either direction.  Your comments don't offend me personally (even though it was directed at believers here, and I am a believer), but your false teaching presents a challenge and an opportunity to prove your words.

I believe I (and others here) have proved them as false, and I have been pressing you to discuss what I have presented, and you simply won't address it at all.  This is a forum; you will be challenged.  If you try to subtly fly under the radar now, I have to tell you that you have already made your position plain.

Are you doing it on purpose or do you simply not care about Your fellow man? Why not give it a rest and let God be true and every man a liar? It will do you good!

Baptistic:  In this reference to Romans 3, Paul did not mean to fatalistically let false teachers talk without resistance.  He was talking about the Jew, entrusted with the word of God, that if any Jew was faithless, yet God remained faithful.  The word of God is not dependent upon the faithfulness of men.  Paul said that they are condemned who say, let us do evil that good may result.

Anyone can bring someone down, but to build someone up takes something special... I wonder, do you have what it takes to build someone up?

Baptistic:  Jack, I am doing so right now, but you cannot see it.  Some need a soft word, some an harsh word.  Because of your posture at this forum, I have taken it to mean you need the harsh.  However, I note that you have expressed appreciation for a soft word from another poster.  Jude 1:22-23  22  And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.  Which would you prefer?  Because in sharing, you must want to hear the other and respond in a way that does not include insults, dismissiveness, or avoidance.  When you make what is perceived as false claims, you must be able to discuss it responsively or your complaints here are not warranted.

I took the time to compose appropriate responses on this thread. If you can take the time to complain, you can also take the time to fairly consider the claims I presented.

Baptistic Wrote:

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

Baptistic Wrote:

Jack, you simply fail to address the implications of the Cross, when you maintain this dual, false claim concerning Jesus Christ.

Why are you always looking for faults Baptistic?

Baptistic:  I am testing the spirit(s) behind your theology:  1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Did God appoint you judge over me?

Baptistic:  I believe my approach toward you is scriptural:  1 Corinthians 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?  Paul is talking about Christians suing Christians in court, but a case can be made you have tried to take Christians here to the court of your own persuasion, which persuasion is contrary to what is proclaimed at Jews for Jesus.  You are simply hearing my responsive pleadings.

Do you have any idea how you make me feel when I login here and have you attack everything I share?

Baptistic:  My responses seem like attacks to you because they are an appropriate response to what you have been attempting to do here.  In Revelation 2:20, the Lord Jesus Christ rebukes one of the churches for allowing a false teacher to lead them into false worship.  Below (from Denying Jesus) in green is a good example of what could be characterized by the saints as an attack by you, rather than simply sharing on your part:

Jack Lavictoire Wrote:

Doesn’t God teach you people?
Is He in your world at all?

It’s as if you need someone to teach you the very basics of the faith.

Jesus Christ was sent by His Father to be our savior. He isn’t the Father!
Get back into God’s word people because like I said, it’s shameful to see how your twisting God’s Holy Word.

As for me, I’ve known both the Father and His Son and I can tell you with all confidence that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God the Father at this very moment and that Jesus isn’t the Father.

There is one God – The Father.
Jesus has the same nature as His Father (Godship) but He Himself isn’t God. Or don’t you know that the Father is placing all things under the Son and that once all things have been placed under the Son that He Himself will be subject to the Father.

Who is teaching you people? Because your obviously not in the faith!

Man it’s as if 100 weeds pop up as soon as one true believer shows up. Sad thing about it is that your being deceived and are now deceiving others into believing your little theories.

If you knew the scriptures you would agree with me, and I hope that at least one person in this whole forum is going to agree with the scriptures.

[ ... ]

Those of you who have web sites had better go back and edit your statement of faith because like I said, your clearly not in the faith!!!

[ ...] So believe the scriptures and turn away from those who are deceiving you. And for God’s sake, stop deceiving my brothers!

Baptistic:  If you feel like you're being found with fault, or judged, or attacked, could it have been something you said?

Now, if you allow that someone is trying to communicate something to you, you will understand why it comes across strong from either direction.  Your comments don't offend me personally (even though it was directed at believers here, and I am a believer), but your false teaching presents a challenge and an opportunity to prove your words.

I believe I (and others here) have proved them as false, and I have been pressing you to discuss what I have presented, and you simply won't address it at all.  This is a forum; you will be challenged.  If you try to subtly fly under the radar now, I have to tell you that you have already made your position plain.

Are you doing it on purpose or do you simply not care about Your fellow man? Why not give it a rest and let God be true and every man a liar? It will do you good!

Baptistic:  In this reference to Romans 3, Paul did not mean to fatalistically let false teachers talk without resistance.  He was talking about the Jew, entrusted with the word of God, that if any Jew was faithless, yet God remained faithful.  The word of God is not dependent upon the faithfulness of men.  Paul said that they are condemned who say, let us do evil that good may result.

Anyone can bring someone down, but to build someone up takes something special... I wonder, do you have what it takes to build someone up?

Baptistic:  Jack, I am doing so right now, but you cannot see it.  Some need a soft word, some an harsh word.  Because of your posture at this forum, I have taken it to mean you need the harsh.  However, I note that you have expressed appreciation for a soft word from another poster.  Jude 1:22-23  22  And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.  Which would you prefer?  Because in sharing, you must want to hear the other and respond in a way that does not include insults, dismissiveness, or avoidance.  When you make what is perceived as false claims, you must be able to discuss it responsively or your complaints here are not warranted.

I took the time to compose appropriate responses on this thread. If you can take the time to complain, you can also take the time to fairly consider the claims I presented.

BAPTISTIC AND JACK,

VERY AMUSING THREAD!