JFJ Forums

Let's just say that Jesus didn't come on the scene at all.  Or he did but Christianity never became Christianity.  

Given the destruction of the Second Temple, the expulsion of the Jews, what do you think would have happened to Judaism?  Would it have maintained its uniqueness?  Would it look more like that type practiced by the Samaritans?  Would there be only a handful of people observing somewhere, unnoticed by the rest of the world?

And would the rest of the world still worship many deities?

Let's just say that Jesus didn't come on the scene at all.  Or he did but Christianity never became Christianity.  

Given the destruction of the Second Temple, the expulsion of the Jews, what do you think would have happened to Judaism?  Would it have maintained its uniqueness?  Would it look more like that type practiced by the Samaritans?  Would there be only a handful of people observing somewhere, unnoticed by the rest of the world?

And would the rest of the world still worship many deities?

Let's just say that Jesus didn't come on the scene at all.  Or he did but Christianity never became Christianity.

Baptistic:  Given that, what you have then is no Israel, and actually no world either.  Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  Rev. 13:8

This question reminds me of the statement I heard from a [New Age] seminar leader in a church basement, who said " ... and this would be true, even if there was no God."  Or that song of John Lennon, "Imagine there's no heaven ... "

This is a Satanic hope (long since dashed), that Jesus not come on the scene at all, and a Satanic boast, that there is no need of God.  This is not what the Jewish people are made from, and this is not the Jewish future nor the future of those nations whose people put their trust in Jesus.

Satan has already been judged (John 16:11); the final judgment of this world is next (Rev. 19).  Are you ready to meet Jesus Christ?

God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus.  God has planned an eternal future with the world.  He plans to dwell with us!  Why would you wish that away?  The only scenarios you can re-arrange are your own, whether you will choose Jesus or whether you will reject Him.  He has come, and He is coming again.  Are you ready?

Given the destruction of the Second Temple, the expulsion of the Jews, what do you think would have happened to Judaism?  Would it have maintained its uniqueness?  Would it look more like that type practiced by the Samaritans?  Would there be only a handful of people observing somewhere, unnoticed by the rest of the world?

And would the rest of the world still worship many deities?

[quote=Baptistic]
[quote=kotzker_53]
Let's just say that Jesus didn't come on the scene at all.  Or he did but Christianity never became Christianity.

Baptistic:  Given that, what you have then is no Israel, and actually no world either.  Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  Rev. 13:8

This question reminds me of the statement I heard from a [New Age] seminar leader in a church basement, who said " ... and this would be true, even if there was no God."  Or that song of John Lennon, "Imagine there's no heaven ... "

This is a Satanic hope (long since dashed), that Jesus not come on the scene at all, and a Satanic boast, that there is no need of God.  This is not what the Jewish people are made from, and this is not the Jewish future nor the future of those nations whose people put their trust in Jesus.

Satan has already been judged (John 16:11); the final judgment of this world is next (Rev. 19).  Are you ready to meet Jesus Christ?

God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus.  God has planned an eternal future with the world.  He plans to dwell with us!  Why would you wish that away?  The only scenarios you can re-arrange are your own, whether you will choose Jesus or whether you will reject Him.  He has come, and He is coming again.  Are you ready?

Geez louise, Baptistic.  I don't wish Jesus never came.  I'm glad he did and I'm glad he did change the world.  Maybe another option I should have included in my question would have been, 'What if followers of Jesus became completely absorbed into Judaism?'  But I wanted to talk about a world without this Christianity that is a cultural, political behemoth.

Baptistic:  I believe I did understand what you were getting at; I was commenting on the implications of your statement.

What to you is the change that Jesus brought to the world?  And does Judaism as you understand it today afford the same change?  Is Messiah the Lamb of God or is Judaism?  The reason the non-Jewish believers were not required to be under the Law was that Jesus saved on the basis of faith in Himself (His work and Person).  That would to me answer the what-if of absorption into Judaism:  This was not following Jesus Christ.  The Jewish believers were also saved apart from the deeds of the Law.

I wonder if Judaism would be a blip on the radar if Christianity had not become what we have today?  Persecutions of Jews in the name of Christianity have been horrific throughout the ages.  Such opposition also helps a group define more clearly definewho they are, compels them to do so.

Baptistic:  Jesus knew what Christianity would become.  You are familiar with the parable of the mustard seed.  In Matthew 13 Jesus is talking throughout about how in the course of spreading the word of God, satanic forces are at work.  The kingdom of heaven is likened to something that is unnaturally overgrown (mustard does not grow to the size of a tree), and is inhabited by a lot of [dirty] birds.  Birds are used as a symbol of evil in scripture, and fits the context this chapter.

I think it is reasonable to say that a what-if scenario showing a more favorable church growth, quality and ultimate treatment of the Jewish people (for these persecutions were satanic, as originating from error, just as the Jewish nonbelievers in Jesus operated from error to persecute Jewish Christians) would require a complete absence of evil in the world after that Pentecost when the church was begun and empowered by the Holy Spirit.  Jesus gave several examples of what the reality of the continued presence of evil would exercise within the kingdom of heaven.  Such a what-if scenario would also assume that Judaism, not Messiah, is the power over sin.  Just as it is wrong to assign the church as having power over sin, it is wrong to assign such power to Judaism, or any other religion.  It is by the power of God, accomplished for us through Jesus Christ, the God-man, who died in our place on the Cross, and rose again for our justification.

When Jesus returns, He will put down all unrighteousness, and will utlimately at the Judgment throw Satan into hell along with those who follow him.  The career of the "birds" will then be over forever.

I am not hoping/arguing for the absence of Jesus.  My focus is on Judaism.  

I was thinking of the Puritan movement in the 1600s and the first Great Awakening in America in the early 1700s.  These moved further away from ritual and closer to personal, experiential religious practices.    

Chasidism has a similar start date.  Would that have occurred without all the religious changes in the 'Christian' world at that time?

g

  Or that song of John Lennon, "Imagine there's no heaven ... "

This is a Satanic hope

i agree that this is satanic hope but i dont agree you that it is 'dashed'.

i think this is satans work done here by john. john lennon was duped by satan because he wasnt paying atten.  satan is continually trying to enforce the notion that there is no god or heaven or hell!! if you pay atten and look, you gonna see this everywhere. good people want heaven to exist, bad people only imagine no heaven. they dont want to have to answer to anyone. that why the pharisees denied jesus. they follow after the imagination of their own hearts.

remember captain kirk? you didnt notice that he was always pushing humanity? human are this and that and they were often on trial? the favoroite shows were the ones with that godlike guy named 'Q'. and "spock" the vulcan and 'data' the robot were continually made examples for their lack of humanity? the show continually alluded to and suggested that humanity was a thing that everyone should be serving. poor 'data' only wanted to what? to be human. satan know how to use the TV. he know how to use the movies. imagine, two gay cowboys in 'brokeback mountian'?  he wont stop at nothing.

you think that the actresses adopting these babies from the countries is humanitarian and good? look again. they are disquise their infidelity to god with humanitarianism. these kids will be celebrities in their countries someday and they all will be overflowing with hollywood immorality. they are here for educational purpose of the devil.

6 is the number of a man and men are 6+6+6 is the elevation of the human sprirt to godhood. humanitarianism is his mark. and that the thing we cannot worship. humanity cannot save us and we are not to fall for the illusion that we are gods unto ourselves. that the sin that adam failed on, and that is the on going temptataion that satan tricking us. that we can be gods or that we dont need god we can make it on our own.

L ron hubbard in my opinion, was a knight for humanity and he started something that many believe. a friend of mine lost his wife who refused medical care because she believed his junk. positive thinking is gonna cure her? bunk! there is no such thing as the power of positive thinking when it used by itself. IT TAKES FAITH PLUS THE WORD OF GOD!! not faith alone.

protestantism is a slice of the pie. it doesnt teach scientology but it teaches some of its precepts when it says faith alone. and people whip themseves up in this ' positivity'  like they are drunk in faith but they have not the word of god that they need. aint no mountains going to be cast into the sea unless god want to cause a tsunami! you dont ask god for tsunamis!

i know this isnt anything to do with the thread but i saw the chance to tell......dont worship humanity. dont imagine that there is no heaven. you cannot go your way alone. you cannot be your own god and decide your own doings.

humanity in GOD NAME is HIS temple (he dwells in us)....but humanity in its own name is a beast. the whore and satan are proficient riders.  the great sea is becoming polluted and the fish coming up are often like hellfish. when they open there mouth, there is no money, just death because the humanists and the humanitarianists are filling them with lies and false beliefs that dont save.

its counterantidisestablishmentarianism.......worship of ones country, or race, or culture etc. and removing god from it.  the separation of church and state in a way that effectively results in the removal of the true god from our lives. (rjudaism does this. it attempts to establish jewish humanity under disquise of gods righteous people.)

removing god from americas pledge was a big mistake. i see in my mind, god will remove his protection from america. i hope im wrong because we will put it back. even in this forum, we shouild all be for the one god, truth and not for our own selfish purpose or desire, but the truth.

humanitarianists invent their god. their god is how they say he is and not the way he really is. posters on this board need to focus more on that and cut the spam.  without god, humanity is a waste.

righteous people dont establish themselves, they establish god.