02-12-2007, 04:32 PM
Katarina Wrote:
Dear brother Goy.
You address your post to me among others.
I have a few statements for you to consider. You say that I put Catholicism over the Bible. That’s naturally not how I see it. But the Bible is the heart of the Church. Indeed it came out of the Church, when the Church had already been long in existence and It was preserved by the Church. If you don’t recognize Church authority then neither can you recognize the canon that was agreed upon by the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you say the Church was misled then you are making a liar out of the Lord who promised that death would not prevail against His Church. You would have me choose Catholicism over the Bible. But this is absurd. Catholicism is only a name that describes the teachings of the Church. This Church is the Bride of Christ. You cannot separate Jesus from His bride, and you cannot separate Bible from tradition. Yes.. you also have a tradition whether you recognize it or not. The question is, do you have the guts to ask who your authority is when it comes to interpretation. Your self? How comforting.. or what? There are 30,000 evangelical denominations in America alone, and only one Catholic Church that teaches not according to the spirit of the times or the individual hunch that plants a new church on every street corner and multiplies by division, sometimes calling fellow brothers damned. I want you to pray over some passages from the Bible. And I am not out to give you a rough time, but I wanna tell you that I have been an evangelical Lutheran for my whole life until some few years ago, and becoming a Catholic, on the basis of Scripture, I dared look into the claims of Catholicism and found that they were true.
"You are Kefas and on this rock I will build My Church" “I prayed for you Peter, and when you turn, then strengthen your brothers”.. "Guard my lambs.. be a shepherd to my sheep…guard My sheep”. "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth"..
Why did Jesus choose 12 apostles, my brother? ..if any interpreter is just as good as the other and the Bible just came falling out of the sky.. why the need for elders and councils and the laying on of hands by the first apostles for these ministries if all you need is your Bible.. all these things are written therein.. Try and look around and ask your self. You can start by asking: where are the words “Sola Scriptura” found in the Bible? In the Old Covenant the Lord had a threefold priesthood guarding the interpretation of His laws and decrees.. and Jesus even said: “Obey them because they sit on the Chair of Moses, but do not imitate them” let me bring to your attention that the concept Moses’ chair is not found explicitly in the OT, but Jesus still recognized this need for order and authority. The authority was there, even when the person holding the office was fallible, just as it is today with ordained priests and the chair of Peter. In the New Covenant He has not left us fatherless but has guided the Church according to His own promise. Even in times of distress and poverty in the Bride, the Bridegroom is ever faithful.
Predestination?… “And all mankind will see God’s salvation”
“Then came a man, sent from God, his name was John, he came to give testimony about the light in order that ALL would come to believe by him”. “And everyone who received Him He gave the right to be called Children of God” “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” Therefore it was by faith, so that it could be by grace, so that the promise could remain for all his descendants..” “Him who did not spare His son but gave Him for us all…” etc. The claims of predestination is not only perverse but also illogical when you consider the whole work of salvation from the beginning. The only predestination there is.. and which I think you get mixed up, is the law that sin leads to death. And the one who denies Christ and remains in sin is determined to die and suffer damnation.
The Muslims believe that their god created some people with the intention to destine them for the eternal fires, from the beginning. Try looking at the wounds of Jesus and then look into His Eyes while telling Him that you believe in that kind of teaching.
Praised be the Name of Jesus <><
you forgot something....." i will be with you til the consumation of the world" .that jesus also said to peter just before he ascended to the ancient of days.
now i noticed that a couple of jews for jesus here have come to realize that it not by baptism grace alone (sola gracia) but by grace and obedience. this is progress over what they were saying in this forum a couple years ago. this let me say that relate to katrina said.
it was martin luther who started that sola scripture and sola gracia stuff. now id like to make this point. if jews are willing to concede that it takes more than baptism to be saved, then shouldnt they take another look at the church? i mean if luther was wrong about the sola gracia, what does this to say about his rejection of the church? i mean that protestants exist only because of him and now they are seeing that grace and obedience is needed and that not his teaching. you rejecting martin luther teaching now but you are still protestant?????
katrina is absolutely correct when she says that the church existed and was teaching gospel before the evangelists wrote it! the church, being jewish in spirit are technically jews. descendants of jews. they have a oral gospel same like the jews have an oral torah because their religion is a perfected or completed judaism.
like i told you guys before....if sola scriptura was the truth, then your faith changes every time the NIV or some other bible is REVISED.
the church protector of the faith.
the NIV is the worst bible for revisions there is.
the mountain of torah forms the base of gods holy mountain and the gospel is established " as the top of the mountains" it completes the mountain and is part of it. christs temple/ church, rests on top of it.
did you see in both old and new testaments it says that the mountain was cleaved north to south and half of it slid down in the valley? this is showing that when jesus divided the good jews from the bad by his gospel, that toral mountain split and the 'sliding into the valley' part was the bad jews breaking away from god, actually the son of god. they went into a 'valley' because it metphor for below the faith. land is faith and a valley is a low point in the land. the mountain was then raised per isaias 2.2 and this toward heaven.
the mountain is knowledge and the church has it. that why the temple is on the top, the mountain of the lords house.
now gospel tells us that jesus establishes this mountain of gospel and that mean the lords house is there. do you see it? its the "mountain of the lords house" so, where is the house? martin luther cannot tell you where ist is but i can and katrina can. the resting place of god is called his "footstool" in many bible places and rome is the footstool of the catholic church!
the bible is a tool of the church and not the church! you cant take the churchs tools and revise them and make your own church. in all law, i noticed this flaw. people tend to forget about the SPIRIT which all law is meant to serve, and then serve the letter of the law and not the law. this is the thing wrong with rjudaism. they "avoid a gnat and swallow a camel." that jesus said and he meant.
the nazis on trial served the letter of the law? (their defense) they were found guilty because they did not serve the spirit of the law which is greater than the law. law is for the spirit and not, spirit for the law. this is another reason why sola scriptura alone is not enuf. the bible not for any one person interpretation and we need the age old wisdom to define and interpret it for us.
GoOD ONE, katrina. you guys need listen up. its true.