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Ripley's,
Ray has a point: Even Union states like Kentucky, Maryland, etc., owned slaves; the South just didn't like the industralized North infringing on their Southern rights to hold slaves, and Ulysses Grant and Abraham Lincoln held at least some common views of that day.

RE: slavery--

It was a moral issue from the time of the Declaration. Jefferson and Washington, and others knew it. It was at odds with the very foundation of this nation, but for the sake of the nation, they forewent the infighting.

The abolitionist movement came straight out of the church. Are they people or property? Human or livestock. That was the very heart of the issue.

Like I said, read the Lincoln/Dougals debates. It was not "just" an economic situation. The MO Compromise forced the issue to be dealt with once and for all as a nation. Much like the situation now with gay marriage. We have a "Cali/Mass compromise", effectively. It has economic consequences, but the issue is a moral one.

-not the purpose of this thread, but.... -

RIPLEY'S:


Before the war, Lincoln himself had pledged to leave slavery intact, to enforce the fugitive slaves laws, and to support an amendment that would forever guarantee slavery where it then existed. Neither did he lift a finger to repeal the anti-Negro laws that besotted all Northern states, Illinois in particular. Recall that the underground railroad ended, not in New York or Boston-since dropping off blacks in those states would have been restricted-but in Canada!
The Confederate Constitution did, however, make possible the gradual elimination of slavery, a process that would have been made.

SHALOM!
Ray

Lincoln said that he would keep slavery in the South to reunite and kept in tact the Union. By the way, are you sure that the two witnesses aren't literal humans and Christians, like maybe (sadly) two witnesses from Jews for Jesus?

RIPLEY SAYS:

    "The abolitionist movement came straight out of the church. Are they people or property? Human or livestock. That was the very heart of the issue."
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Here is a good example of morality without responsibility.
When the Slaves were forced to leave the plantations they flocked
to the cities. They had little education or vocational training, so they
could not gain employment. Thousands of them starved to death.
Some of them were permitted to return to the plantations, the only
life they knew. Later on they were introduced to the share-crop
system where they could eventually earn their own land.
The relationships between Black and White were as families.
Black mothers would even nurse White babies.
The towns were given over to the Blacks on Saturday nights, and
Whites seldom entered.
The stores stayed open late, and the movie houses catered only to
the blacks.
Once a Black guy said to me; "If you were a Black boy for one
Saturday night, you'd never want to be  a White boy again."


SHALOM!
Ray  

ANNE SAYS:

   " And I believe the two witnesses are literal. I actually believe they will be Moses and Elijah (the law and the prophet), but I could be wrong about that. Elijah never died and there is that pesky verse in Jude (I think) about the devil fighting over Moses' body"
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GoyOfY'shua Says:

"By the way, are you sure that the two witnesses aren't literal humans and Christians, like maybe (sadly) two witnesses from Jews for Jesus"
_________________________________________________________
I have heard several interpretations of the two witnesses based on
the Scripture: "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that
the judgement."
The top candidates seem to be, Moses and Elijah, Enoch and Elijah,
Moses and Enoch. I have also heard the witness of Jew and Christian.
Now if their deaths are literal being killed by the beast, would nullify
Elijah, who, according to Jesus, was John the Baptist who was
beheaded. Moses we know died overlooking the Promised Land at age
120. I don't think Satan wrestling for his body nullifies his death.
That leaves only Enoch who was raptured. Still need another one.

The born again believer is the best candidate which Jesus proclaimed,
although there will be 2 billion saved. The indwelling Jesus constitutes
the two witnesses.
Still, He could appoint 2 people; but where are they?
They should have started back on 4/24/05 according to the Bible
Chronology; there wouldn't be 1,260 days left from the middle of the
70 th week of Daniel as the days will be cut short to 9/29/2011.
We are just out of time!
And too, it all hinges on Israel's repentance!

SHALOM!
Ray

Re: the Two Witnesses: I've read all of the theories, and yours is a good one, Ray, but I can't get past the literal approach to scripture. But I do believe we are all in for some surprises as it plays out, and it's important to keep an open mind; to continue to watch and pray.

I wrote earlier about persecution that I believe is coming to Christians in the U.S., and I believe it will be soon. Earlier this week ABC News did a story on a religious survey that found most Americans, even "evangelical Christians," believe there is more than one way to God and they have no right to "impose" their beliefs on others.

I can't help but think of that smiling pastor on CNN who, when asked by the interviewer, "Do you think I'm going to hell?" responded by saying demurely, "I can't judge." What? In the book of Acts the Apostles at every turn asked, "What do you think of Christ?" That's the critical flash point! This pastor had an amazing opportunity to proclaim Jesus Christ on national television and instead he completely sold out.

Anyway, the presumption according to the ABC News story is that all belief systems are equally valid, which is a stupid notion and completely unsustainable by any form of logic or debate. But ABC played this up like it was a great thing; good news! We've all become so open minded! (...that our brains are falling out.)

Christians who refuse to conform to this way of thinking; who insist that Jesus, as He Himself said, is the ONLY way to God, are going to become increasingly marginalized and even vilified. It's a-coming. And I SO don't think the American church is even remotely ready to stand and contend for the faith under the fire of persecution, but I hope I'm wrong.

Maranatha!
Anne

But wasn't John the Baptist like a figurative Elijah or the Elijah of his age or the New Covenant?

Goy. . . wrote: But wasn't John the Baptist like a figurative Elijah or the Elijah of his age or the New Covenant?

I'm with her on this one. Just as David was a "type" of Christ, and was called annointed, which can also be translated messiah, John the Baptist was a type of Elijah. The whole reincarnation thing just doesn't sit well with me.

"Goy. . . wrote: But wasn't John the Baptist like a figurative Elijah or the Elijah of his age or the New Covenant?"
_____________________________________________________
Anne wrote:
"I'm with her on this one. Just as David was a "type" of Christ, and was called annointed, which can also be translated messiah, John the Baptist was a type of Elijah. The whole reincarnation thing just doesn't sit well with me."
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The whole reincarnation thing just doesn't sit well with me either.
It is appointed unto man OUNCE TO DIE...
So back to Alijah.
Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and
Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah? He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?" [I.e. Jesus] And he answered "no."...
V,22b What do you say about yourself?"
He said: "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
Make straight the way of the LORD," as the prophet Isaiah said."
[JOHN 1:19-23]

The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
"Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make straight in the desert
A highway for our G-D.
Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain shall be brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough places smooth;
The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
[ISAIAH 40:3-5]  [See the Dead Sea Scrols]

"Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold He is coming,"
Says the LORD of hosts.
[MALACHI 3:1]

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