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For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are
willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. [MATTHEW 11:13-14]

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
[MATTHEW 17:3]
Representing that the Old Testament Scriptures had been looking
forward to the Messiah and His kingdom.
"Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things."
  "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not
know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son
of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples
understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
[MATTHEW 17:11-13]
  Jesus indicates  that the prophecies concerning Elijah had their
fulfillment in John the Baptist.
Further proof that the role of Elijah will be taken up by the "Two
Witnesses." I believe by the ones who are "born again." [JOHN 3:3]

But I say to you that Elijah has also come, and they did to him
whatever they wished, as it is written of him. [MARK 9:12b]

  "But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not
taste death till they see the kingdom of G-D." [LUKE 9:27]
After 8 days He took Peter, John, and James up on the mountain
to pray. As He prayed the appearance of His face was altered and
His robe became white and glistening.
And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,
who appeared in glory... [LUKE 9:28-31]

SHALOM!
Ray  

Anne says:

   "but I can't get past the literal approach to scripture."
______________________________________________________
You have to go by context.
You yourself said John the Baptist is not Elijah and is only a type;
not the literal Elijah. How is this a literal approach?
Then too, if this "death" by the beast  is really being silenced, it
wouldn't make a difference. Even Moses could be resurrected.

SHALOM!
Ray  

Regarding a literal vs. allegorical approach to scripture, Ray wrote:

“You have to go by context.
You yourself said John the Baptist is not Elijah and is only a type;
not the literal Elijah. How is this a literal approach?”

This isn’t an exact science, but determining whether something is literal or figurative is not a difficult as people think.

Some stories are both literal and allegorical, as in the story of Sarah and Hagar. The conflict between the two, with Hagar being sent away and Sarah bearing the child of the promise, is literal. But there is a spiritual / allegorical meaning behind this literal story, as Paul tells us in his letter to the Galatians.

Some stories are clearly allegorical, as in Lewis’ satirical line that when Jesus told us to be like doves, he didn’t intend for us to lay eggs. Another example of this is the John the Baptist/Elijah conflict. The only way John could have been Elijah is through reincarnation, which we agree would be completely inconsistent with the God of the Bible. Reincarnation is a pagan belief. Also, as you pointed out, John himself denied that he was Elijah, so the comparison is allegorical and NOT literal.

And some stories are literal, with no allegorical meaning. I’m reminded of the passages in the Gospels where Jesus told His disciples He was going to be crucified and three days later rise from the dead. Later the disciples asked one another, “What did He mean when he said he was going to die and be raised from the dead?” Duh! He meant he was going to die and be raised!

The question is, how do we know which is which? And I believe this is a critical question, because throughout history Jews and Christians have been guilty of allegorizing prophetic passages that, in fact, turned out to be very literal in their fulfillment.

A few hundred years after the Diaspora, the church drifted into replacement theology. At that time in history, it was inconceivable that the promises to Abraham could be literal, since there was no longer a national Israel and no indication there would ever be one again. So Christian leaders invented the idea that those promises were figurative, not literal, and the church replaced Israel in God’s economy, which was a grave error.

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As I’m sure you know, there are approximately 300 OT prophecies about the first coming of Messiah. They were confusing prior to the fact because of some contradictions, most notably the conquering King vs. the Suffering Servant. To make sense out of things, some of the Messianic passages were allegorized. It was theorized, for example, that the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53 was a symbol of suffering Israel. We now know the “contradictory” passages were about ONE Messiah coming TWICE. Literally.

In fact, every one of the prophecies about the first coming of Christ was literally fulfilled. Psalm 22 describes crucifixion in astonishing detail hundreds of years before that form of torture and death was invented. Isaiah includes the strange note that Messiah would be buried with the rich, which doesn’t make any sense at all, since He is described as being utterly despised. But, of course, it was literally fulfilled. The 30 pieces of silver, the virgin birth, the miracles, the resurrection – they’re all in there.

So doesn’t it make sense to interpret Scripture at face value, while allowing for figures of speech? You’re right, we need to look at the context, and compare scripture with scripture. But unless there is a compelling reason to allegorize things, I’m for taking it literally, lest we drift into error. I have some ideas about who the two witnesses are, but since the Bible doesn’t nail it down, there is no way to be certain. But I do believe they are literal, not allegorical, because there is no compelling reason within the text to believe otherwise.

I was taught growing up that the Bible is a nice book with fictional stories, nothing more. Even after I became a Christian, I continued to believe that much of the Bible was metaphorical. It’s been a study of Bible prophecy that turned me into a literalist. Which is kind of ironic, since I remember debating literal vs. figurative with you many years ago. And weren’t you the one arguing for a more literal approach back then? LOL!

Blessings & peace,
Anne

Well said.  Perhaps, if God has no problem finding 144,000 Mesianics to teach and lift the veil from Israeli eyes, He won't have any problem spotting his two Witnesses....Heh, Heh, I want to see the look on their faces, when they realize what they must do, and how important the job.
I am interested in your use of the word '(sadly).'  I can only try to imagine the awe, love, wonder, and honor, they will feel.  Yeeeeee-Haaaaaa can't vocalize their feelings, me thinks.  They will exude  so much holiness, their pathway will glow in the 'light.'
My heart is singing praises, so I will stop, and enjoy the feeling.
Shalom in Christ, to one and all,  Arley

God did speak to Sarah, when she laughed.  The last words He had with her, was 'But you did laugh.' (close)  Sarah lied to God, Hagar didn't, and accepted her obvious fate, to die, with her son, for following Abrahams order to leave.  Matter of fact, I think that was when God blessed ishmael (by the way, I believe that Ishmael was dieing of thirst, not hunger).
Good thought line, though, as I never thought about God not speaking to/blessing Sarah, and yet speaking to/blessing Hagar.  Hmmmmm.   Food for thought.

To one and all:  After reading these first sections of this discussion, I take this moment to say:  Thank You!  This is what I was looking for, so as to 'learn.'  Most of you are so much better versed than I, and as long as you respect each other, I will enjoy learning from your wisdom, and knowlege.
To all, Shalom in Christ.   Arley

The two witness get persecuted and killed.

[/quote]

The two witness get persecuted and killed.
[/quote]

Of course, but only the mortal/carbon body part.  Three and a half days later, wow, what a performance they will give those left on this 'sinful' world.  Come to think about it, could this murder, and subsequent reserection, and assention, perhaps, maybe, hopefully, be the thing that removes the veil of blindness to Yaushuah's deity?  Something has to lift Jewish blindness to Him.  As far as I can tell, the two witnesses, their murder, and reserection, are front stage important to God's plan.  Just a thought, but then, you guys have probably discussed this aspect.  
Shalom in Christ,  Arley

  
Anne says:

   "but I can't get past the literal approach to scripture."
____________________________________________
The Sadusees take the literal approach too. The Pharasees take the
oral tradition. Jesus fulfilled literal Scripture. Here is an example of
Torah controversy in the counting of the OMER.

THE TRUE OMER
Shabbat HaGadol – 10 Nisan 3790 “The Great Sabbath”
(Jesus’ Birthday) Age 34, March 30, 0030 AM 4082
“Choosing the Lamb”

The Pesach Lamb was chosen on 10 Nisan to be sacrificed on the afternoon of 14 Nisan, Erev Pesach,
Ta’anit Bechorot (Fast Of The 1ST Born).
This day is the day of Preparation for Passover where all the leaven (a symbol for sin) is removed from the
Children of Israel’s dwellings.

Jesus became sin for us, so He too was removed on this Wednesday in Preparation for “The Feast of the Unleavened Bread.” [15 Nisan to 21 Nisan]
The Witness: John The Baptist; “Behold the Lamb of G-D that takes away the sins of the world!”


3/30/0030 Saturday      10 Nisan, Shabbat HaGadol; “Choosing the Lamb”
3/31/0030 Sunday        11 Nisan
4/ 1/0030 Monday        12 Nisan
4/ 2/0030 Tuesday        13 Nisan
4/ 3/0030 Wednesday   14 Nisan; Preparation Passover; The Lamb sacrificed; Jesus crucified. [LEV. 23:5]
4/ 4/0030 Thursday      15 Nisan; Passover. 1ST day Feast of the Unleavened Bread. Annual Sabbath.
                                           [LEVITICUS 23:6-8]
4/ 5/0030 Friday           16 Nisan
4/ 6/0030 Saturday        17 Nisan; The Sabbath. [LEVITICUS 23:3]
4/ 7/0030 Sunday          18 Nisan; OMER 1 Morrow after The Sabbath; The 8TH Day,
                                          Jesus resurrected after 3 evenings and 3 mornings in the grave.  Wave offering.
                                          LEVITICUS 23:10-21;
4/ 8/0030 Monday         19 Nisan OMER 2
4/ 9/0030 Tuesday         20 Nisan OMER 3
4/10/0030 Wednesday   21 Nisan; OMER 4 (last day of Feast); a Sabbath.

4/11/0030 to 4/19/0030 = 9 Days; [22 Nisan to 30 Nisan]; OMER 5 to OMER 13
4/20/0030 to 4/30/0030 = 11 Days. [1 Iyar to 11 Iyar]; OMER 14 to OMER 24
5/1/0030 to 5/9/0030 = 9 Days. [12 Iyar to 20 Iyar], OMER 25 to OMER 33; Bonfire Day.
5/10/0030 to 5/16/0030 = 7 Days. [21 Iyar to 27 Iyar], OMER 34 to OMER 40; Jesus arises to Heaven.
5/17/0030 to 5/18/0030 = 2 Days.[28 Iyar to 29 Iyar], OMER 41 to OMER 42
5/19/0030 to 5/26/0030 = 8 Days. [1 Sivan to 8 Sivan], OMER 43 to OMER 50; Sunday Pentecost,
                                           [Shavuot], the Church is Baptized in the Holy Ghost.

Note that the Oralists start counting on the 16th Nisan which prevents
Pentacost Sunday, another 8th day.
Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday and 50 days later sent back the
Holy Ghost.

SHALOM!
RAY  

    

How about; there's a spiritual message in ALL of it, as it was written by the Spirit, and since it's impossible for Him to be any less than what He is......for this reason then the natural, literal, Word mirrors the Spiritual Word.