JFJ Forums

Hi, Ray! I'm so glad you've revived this thread again. I always enjoy reading your insights.

I have also enjoyed yours and others' contributions on the "Saved!" thread. Some powerful stuff! I believe with Anja that something big is coming.

In Joel and again in Acts we are promised that in the last days, God will pour out His Spirit and there will be mighty signs and wonders. I know I've experienced some amazing things and they seem to be accelerating: warnings and promises, all at the same time. Some terrible and wonderful things are coming, as evil increases and God pours out his Spirit for the final harvest. I pray for discernment all the time, and for a readiness so that I may be found faithful. I also pray that everything I say and do will be grounded in the Word. And I count it as a great, great privilige to be serving Christ in this day and age.

And, by the way, I cannot imagine you denying Christ under any circumstances. But I think it's quite a compliment to you that the enemy tried to get you to do so.

Maranatha!
Anne

Aad 2 wrote:

   "dbethea,

Matth.11:28-30
Come unto me,
all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and
I will give you rest.  
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;
for I am meek and lowly in heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.  

The Lord is our REST; He is our Sabbath;
When we die and live with Him, there is no need anymore for the obsevance of the Old testament ceremonial/sabbatical laws."
_____________________________________________________
AMEN!

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one
jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled.
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these Commandments,
and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven.
[MATTHEW 5:18]

The Law and the Prophets were until John. Since that time the
kingdom of G-D has been preached, and everyone is pressing into
it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one
tittle of the Law to fail.
[LUKE 16:16-17]

"The grass withers, the flower fades,
But the word of our G-D stands forever."

Remember, the letter of the Law only shows that you are a sinner
and you need to be saved. The Spirit of the Law is Love, when you
walk in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
The letter of the law becomes meaningless, Jesus already paid the
price.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of G-D is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our LORD.

We now obey the Sabbath as a testimony of the peace that Jesus
brings when you are "born again." You no longer have to labor in
your flesh, but experience the love and joy and peace of the
Holy Ghost. It also points to the Kingdom of Heaven.

SHALOM!
  Ray  

RayBurghen,

Very interesting thread you have going here.  I had a questions and a comment. I hope you don’t mind.    You mentioned the following in one of your posts:




It is my understanding, based on the astronomical and historical records that Nebuchadnezzar ruled from 604-560 BC.   II Kings 24:12 indicates that it was the 8th year of Nebuchadnezzar when Jehoiachin surrendered to the King.   This would place the 5th year of Jehoiachin’s captivity and the 30th year of Ezekiel 1 in the year 590 BC.   I was wondering how you arrived at the year 480 BC.  

As to your statement of Jesus being born in 4 BC I also believe the evidence shows he was born at this time.   If born in 4 BC this would make him 30 years old in 27 AD.  I have included a couple of tables showing my understanding.  They explain it much better than my words.  27 AD also fits with the disciple’s statement that the temple was 46 years in building.  (This would be the 46 years of Herod’s reconstruction efforts)

I am interested in your thoughts on this.

Regards,
Wstruse

Wstruse wrote:

It is my understanding, based on the astronomical and historical records that Nebuchadnezzar ruled from 604-560 BC.   II Kings 24:12 indicates that it was the 8th year of Nebuchadnezzar when Jehoiachin surrendered to the King.   This would place the 5th year of Jehoiachin’s captivity and the 30th year of Ezekiel 1 in the year 590 BC.   I was wondering how you arrived at the year 480 BC.  

As to your statement of Jesus being born in 4 BC I also believe the evidence shows he was born at this time.   If born in 4 BC this would make him 30 years old in 27 AD.  I have included a couple of tables showing my understanding.  They explain it much better than my words.  27 AD also fits with the disciple’s statement that the temple was 46 years in building.  (This would be the 46 years of Herod’s reconstruction efforts)

I am interested in your thoughts on this.

Regards,
Wstruse
_____________________________________________________________

And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity
shall have an end,
Thus saith the Lord God; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown:
this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
I will OVERTURN, OVERTURN, OVERTURN, it: and it shall be no more, until he
come WHOSE RIGHT IT IS; and I will give it him. EZEK. 21:25-27

Nebuchadnezzar (45 yrs) AM 3559 - AM 3604 (BC 493 - BC 448)
3559 + 8 = AM 3567 (BC 485), [ll KINGS 24: 12] Jehoiachin surrenders
to the king. Now 3567 + 5 = AM 3572 (BC 480). [EZEKIEL 1: 2]

Now it came to pass in the 30th year, in the 4th month (TAMMUZ),
on the 5th day of the month, as I was among the captives by the
River Chebar (long time in future), that the heavens were opened
and I saw visions of G-D.
Here we see Ezekiel looking 480 years into the future which would
bring him to AM 4052 (AD 0), the year Jesus was supposed to be
born. Due to calendar error, Jesus was born AM 4048 (BC 4).
[4 years before He was born] Now in Ezekiel 1,  he saw Jesus at age
30; 4048 + 30 = AM 4078 (AD 26). This was the year that Jesus
began to preach the Gospel.
He preached the Gospel for 1,440 days (360)4 after His Baptism and
His subsequent 40 day Fast in the wilderness. He was then hung on
a tree, the PESACH LAMB in AM 4082 (AD 30).

I understand that Herod died in AM 4048 (BC 4). If he worked on the
Temple for 46 years, did he begin in (BC 50?)

SHALOM!
Ray  

Wstruse: continued

A little background:

Aristobolus: (3 years)  AM 4021 - AM 4024  (BC 31 - BC 28)
(Preceptor of King Ptolemy)

[In the year 188 in the Kingdom of the Greeks]  ll Mac. 1:10

Alexander   AM 3834 + 187 = 4021 (BC31)

Ptolemy XV  (2 years) AM 4022 - AM 4024 (BC 30 - BC 28)
(Caesarion)
Cleopatra's child; believed to be murdered by Octavian, and possibly Cleopatra too.

(They had a good special on the History Channel)

Augustus Caesar (40 years) AM 4024 - AM 4064 (BC 28 - AD 12)
(Octavian)

It should also be noted there is no "year 0," thereby losing a year.

[BC 1 - AD 1]

RULERS OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE:
                          
Octavian BC 27 - AD 14
Tiberas   AD 14 - AD 37
Caligula  AD 37 - AD 41
Claudius AD 41 - AD 54
Nero      AD 54 - AD 68

Should be:
            BC 28 - AD 12
            AD 12 - AD 36
            AD 36 - AD 40
            AD 40 - AD 54
            AD 54 - AD 68

41 yrs; 40 yrs
23 yrs; 24 yrs
  4 yrs;  4 yrs
13 yrs: 14 yrs
14 yrs; 14 yrs
--------------
95 yrs;  96 yrs  (If you omit the year o, you lose a year.


SALEM!
  Ray  

  WSTRUSE:

The date of Passover 11BC – 10AD
[Determining the date of the death of Herod]

Susan Stolovy, an astronomer at Steward Observatory (Tucson, USA), has been kind enough to calculate the date of Passover for me for a wide range of dates around the time of the Nativity.

Susan comments: "I'm getting my information from http://www.uwm.edu/cgi-bin/corre/calendar

The first day of Passover is always the 15th of Nisan (starting the evening of the 14th of Nisan).

Here are the Gregorian dates for Nisan 15. Note that the Jewish calendar has a 19-year cycle, in which the years 0, 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, and 17 all have an extra month of Adar (30 days), which occurs in Feb or March. I happened to notice that the 0th year of one of these cycles is the year 02 (which is 3762), so you can see why some years Passover is considerably later than others."


Hebrew Year
Date of 15 Nisan
Gregorian Year

3750
Mar 27
11 BC

3751
Apr 16
10 BC

3752
Apr 4
9 BC

3753
Mar 25
8 BC

3754
Apr 12
7 BC

3755
Apr 1
6 BC

3756
Mar 21
5 BC

*3757
Apr 10
4 BC

3758
Mar 29
3 BC

3759
Mar 18
2 BC

3760
Apr 6
1 BC

3761
Mar 27
1 AD

3762
Apr 14
2 AD

3763
Apr 3
3 AD

3764
Mar 23
4 AD

3765
Apr 12
5 AD

3766
Apr 1
6 AD

3767
Mar 20
7 AD

3768
Apr 8
8 AD

3769
Mar 28
9 AD

3770
Apr 15
10 AD


You can compare these dates with the dates of lunar eclipses visible from Jerusalem around this time. We know that Herod died between a lunar eclipse observed from Jericho and the date of Passover. In other words, to date Herod’s death, we are looking for an eclipse that happened less than a lunar month (29 days) before the date of Passover.


Date
Year
Type of eclipse

June 3rd
9 BC
Total

November 28th
9 BC
Total

November 18th
8 BC
Partial, 43%

March 23rd
5 BC
Total

September 15th
5 BC
Total

*March 13th
4 BC
Partial, 35%

July 17th
2 BC
Partial, 81%

January 9th
1 BC
Total

Only two eclipses in this interval fall around the time of Passover and, of these, the March 23rd, 5BC eclipse was just after Passover. [In other words, only the March 13th 4 BC eclipse fits the known circumstances of Herod’s death.] Curiously, it was the least spectacular of all the eclipses of the period in question.


"Man learns from history only that he learns nothing from history!"

    SHALOM
      Ray

Ray,

Thank you for your response.   What I am really interested in though is how you arrive at your 493 BC - 448 BC date for Nebuchadnezzar.   All of the eclipse records and historical records I have seen show over 100 yrs. difference.    

We seem to be in agreement on the 4 BC date for the birth of Yashua and with a 30 AD date for His death and resurrection.   However, I cannot agree with your 26 AD date for the start of His ministry.   I  do not believe the evidence supports this.  There is only evidence in the gospel accounts (John) for 3 Passovers from the start of His ministry until the end.  

You gave the following dates for the rulers of the Roman empire.  I do not understand how you arrive at your dates.  The 1st set of dates seem to match the historical record.   The 2nd set of dates are what should be (if I understand you right) because of no 0 years between BC and AD.   Yet, in your 1st set of dates they do not count the 0 year.   They are correct as far as I can tell.    Even if 1 year is taken ,the 2nd set of dates still does not add up. I must be misunderstanding you.

Continued:


Tucson, USA is in my neck of the woods.  We live about 1.5 hrs. away.   The dates Susan Stolovy calculated for you are basically the same that I have arrived at myself.   At the end of this post I have included a table of the 4 BC eclipse showing the Biblical calendar related to our modern dating.   I agree with you and Susan Stolovy that the Passover likely fell on or about April 10th of that year.  




Based on Josephus’ writings (Ant 17:145-218) 29 days is not enough time for the events described to take place.   At a minimum it was 25 days from the eclipse until the death of Herod.  The ceremonial funeral march alone took another 25 days not to mention all the other events that took place between Herods death and the following Passover.  Please see the table at the end for my understanding of the time involved.

Further complicating a 4 BC death for Herod is the Megilath Ta’anith. (Jewish scroll of fasting) It indicates that Herod died on the 1st of Shevat.  

So while I agree that Yashua was born in 4 BC I do not see how Herod could have died in 4 BC.  I believe that the following points remove the possibility of Herods death occurring in 4 BC.

*  Josephus’ narrated chronology by multiple synchronisms shows that Herod died in 3 BC.
* The 4 BC eclipse record and the events described eliminate a 4 BC death for Herod.
* The Megilath Ta’anith ’s date of Shevat 1 also removes  the possibility of a 4 BC death for Herod.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

  

The date of Passover 11BC – 10AD


Susan Stolovy, an astronomer at Steward Observatory (Tucson, USA), has been kind enough to calculate the date of Passover for me for a wide range of dates around the time of the Nativity.

Susan comments: "I'm getting my information from http://www.uwm.edu/cgi-bin/corre/calendar

The first day of Passover is always the 15th of Nisan (starting the evening of the 14th of Nisan).

Here are the Gregorian dates for Nisan 15. Note that the Jewish calendar has a 19-year cycle, in which the years 0, 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, and 17 all have an extra month of Adar (30 days), which occurs in Feb or March. I happened to notice that the 0th year of one of these cycles is the year 02 (which is 3762), so you can see why some years Passover is considerably later than others."


Hebrew Year
Date of 15 Nisan
Gregorian Year

3750
Mar 27
11 BC

3751
Apr 16
10 BC

3752
Apr 4
9 BC

3753
Mar 25
8 BC

3754
Apr 12
7 BC

3755
Apr 1
6 BC

3756
Mar 21
5 BC

*3757
Apr 10
4 BC

3758
Mar 29
3 BC

3759
Mar 18
2 BC

3760
Apr 6
1 BC

3761
Mar 27
1 AD

3762
Apr 14
2 AD

3763
Apr 3
3 AD

3764
Mar 23
4 AD

3765
Apr 12
5 AD

3766
Apr 1
6 AD

3767
Mar 20
7 AD

3768
Apr 8
8 AD

3769
Mar 28
9 AD

3770
Apr 15
10 AD


You can compare these dates with the dates of lunar eclipses visible from Jerusalem around this time. We know that Herod died between a lunar eclipse observed from Jericho and the date of Passover. In other words, to date Herod’s death, we are looking for an eclipse that happened less than a lunar month (29 days) before the date of Passover.


Date
Year
Type of eclipse

June 3rd
9 BC
Total

November 28th
9 BC
Total

November 18th
8 BC
Partial, 43%

March 23rd
5 BC
Total

September 15th
5 BC
Total

*March 13th
4 BC
Partial, 35%

July 17th
2 BC
Partial, 81%

January 9th
1 BC
Total

Only two eclipses in this interval fall around the time of Passover and, of these, the March 23rd, 5BC eclipse was just after Passover. [In other words, only the March 13th 4 BC eclipse fits the known circumstances of Herod’s death.] Curiously, it was the least spectacular of all the eclipses of the period in question.


"Man learns from history only that he learns nothing from history!"

    SHALOM
      Ray

    

THE ROMAN EMPIRE  

Caesar Augustus (40 yrs) AM 4024 - AM 4064 (BC 28 - AD 12)
(Octavian)

[Jesus born AM 4048 (BC 4)] on 10 Nisan ~ "Choosing of the Lamb"

Caesar Tiberius (24 yrs) AM 4064 - AM 4088 (AD 12 - AD 36)

In the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, when John was called out:
AM 4064 + 14 years = AM 4078 (AD 26) ~ Jesus, age 30.
[Lk. 3: 1-23] was baptized.

After a period of 40 days of fasting in the wilderness, he began preaching the Gospel. He preached for 1,440 days.
This brings us to AM 4082 (AD 30) when he was crucified. He was the Paschal Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

Caligula  (4 yrs) AM 4088 - AM 4092 (AD 36 - AD 40)

Claudius (14 yrs) AM 4092 - AM 4106 (AD 40 - AD 54)

Nero (14 yrs) AM 4106 - AM 4120 (AD 54 - AD 68)

Galba (1 yr) AM 4120 - AM 4121 (AD 68 - AD 69)

Otho          AM 4121 - AM 4121 (AD 69 - AD 69)

Vittelius     AM 4121 - AM 4121 (AD 69 - AD 69)

Vespasian* AM 4121 - AM 4131 (AD 69 - AD 79)

Note: *Titus, a general under Vespasian destroyed Temple ll in AM 4122
          (AD 70)

Titus (2 yrs) AM 4131 - AM 4133 (AD 79 - AD 81)


(U.S.W.)

So we see, Jesus was born in April, not December!

       SHALOM!
          RA