What I have learned through 2 Jehovah Witness meetings and reading 4 of their magazines "The Watchtower" (within the past 10 years) is this:
They believe Jesus was created.
They believe Jesus is the archangel Michael.
The above posts are vague except for Brian Roy's and the last post before mine seems to denigrate the person of God in Jesus Christ.
I am trying to get my brain around this post, as if mere words could masquerade for person to person contact.
In JW meetings there is zealousness and order yet there is specific warning for false teachers bringing another gospel in the Holy Scriptures.
I believe the JW's are teaching another gospel.
Shalom
btw I am not a Jehovah's Witness by their own definition.
One called , you mentioned Jesus in mary's womb, there are many manifestations of God in the Old Testament from angels to God in the midst of a burning bush. You also say: If God became a man in the person of Y'shua, then he would cease to be God. And as far as Jesus being the Eikon or image of God I go to --John 14 :9 He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. Greek
percieved -seen - horao - to appear -take hold- beholding- seeth
God chose to come in the form of a man to pay the price for Adams sin with sinless blood. That is the Echad person of God in the man Christ Jesus. God cannot be anywhere without him still being God. God in three persons.
Shalom Ruach Hakodesh
John 14 :9 He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. Greek
percieved -seen - horao - to appear -take hold- beholding- seeth
God chose to come in the form of a man to pay the price for Adams sin with sinless blood. That is the Echad person of God in the man Christ Jesus. God cannot be anywhere without him still being God. God in three persons.
Shalom Ruach Hakodesh
Leaving the New testament aside for a moment...Look in the Old Testament and show me anywhere that God planned to become a man himself to accomplish salvation...
Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel."
Why not just say -
I will bruise your head and you will bruise my heel - ??
The Old Testament sacrifices, typical of Y'shua's death - in trinitarian views would mean that GOD (Since he is GOD) sacrificed nothing. God cannot die! He does not share his glory. This doctrine is a reproach on God. There is simply no possible reason that God would separate himself into three "people". All of it is of pagan and heathen origin.
One called: Isnt it ironic that you would be so thin skinned as to take offence to my remarks or my misreading on your position when you cavilierly dismiss the diety of the King of Kings. However no insult was intented. Whether you go by "JW" or "Arianist" it does not matter. You denie Christ His rightful position in your heart. Your claims that the plurality of God is catholic in origin is not accurate. Suggest the works of Augustine to clarify.
And yes, as long as you intend to be incorrect in your assumptions I will post the many "wierisome" books that express Jewish or catholic thought.
1. Mark 2:1-12--Jesus heals a paralytic. He had authority to forgive sins, which is something only God Himself can do. Then, to authenticate His claim, He demonstrated His power by healing the paralytic.
2. The miracles Jesus performed are a very strong indication of His divinity (because no mere human can work actual miracles by his own power). Jesus referred to the miracles in John 10:24-39 as proof that he was telling the truth. This passage is Christ's own response to the unbelieving Jews' charge of blasphemy (dishonoring God by claiming to be God). Incidentally, this section also includes a beautiful promise that once you are saved/born again/become a Christian, you can never lose your salvation. Verses 28-29 say we will "never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (Here is another strong statement that He is God.)
3. During Christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,
• "I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
• "Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
• "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)
These are all ways of saying the same thing, written by different authors.
In John's gospel, he recounts Jesus' interview with Pontius Pilate (John 18:33-37). Pilate wanted to know if He were the King of the Jews. Jesus then talked about how His kingdom was not of this world. Pilate said, "You are a king, then!" Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king..." The truth is, he is King of the whole universe.
4. Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel. The Jewish people, being an agrarian and shepherding society, knew and dearly loved this section of the Old Testament because God was using a metaphor they lived every day. So when Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd," and that whole John passage so clearly parallels the Ezekiel passage, there was no doubt that He was claiming to be God.
5. John 4:25-26. This is where the Samaritan woman, whom Jesus went to meet at the well, gets into a discussion of "living water" with Jesus. He pinpoints her sinful lifestyle (knowledge He would not have had as a mere human passerby), then He admits that He is the long-awaited Messiah: "I who speak to you am He."
6. John 5:1-18. Jesus heals a lame man on the Sabbath, which the unbelieving Jews gave Him a hard time about. His answer was, "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working." It was a well-known Jewish line of thought that, although God rested on the seventh day after Creation week, He continued to "work" in being loving, compassionate, and just, as well as keeping the earth producing, keeping the sun moving, etc. In other words, although the creating had stopped, the maintenance went on--even on the Sabbath, and that was the only "work" allowed on that day. So Jesus is putting Himself on the same level as his Father in working on the Sabbath. And by calling God "My Father" (instead of "Our Father"), He was claiming an intimate relationship with God that far exceeded anyone else's. So in these two ways, He was making Himself equal with God.
7. John 16:28. "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." What Christ is saying here is that he existed along with the Father before being born. He "entered the world" by wrapping Himself in human flesh and being born as a baby. He grew up, fulfilled His mission/ministry, was crucified and raised from the dead (all part of the "mission") and then left the world to go back to the Father in heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of God (the place of honor). He is the only person who ever existed before conception. That Christ was in a "pre-incarnate state" means that He is God.
8. (This is many people's favorite argument for the deity of Christ, including the author's.)
First, turn to Exodus 3, where Moses encounters God in the burning bush. God tells Moses that he is the one He has chosen to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. Moses says to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me 'What is His name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God replies to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God has said that His own name, His personal name, is "I AM."
Now...
• a) Turn to John 8:56-58. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)
• b) John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins." In your Bible, it may read "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be...." The extra words are supplied by the editors; they're not in the original text. If you're familiar with Exodus 3 you don't need the extra words for it to make grammatical sense. The Lord Jesus is again claiming to be God.
• c) John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground." (Again, in your Bible the editors may have supplied "I am [he]" to make it grammatically correct. The Greek just says, "I AM.")
The force of Jesus' claim to be Yahweh (I AM) was so powerful that it literally knocked the arresting officers and the Jewish priests off their feet!
The above points are by no means exhaustive, and are given to contribute to the reader's understanding that Jesus Christ is Lord because He is God. In this vein, I would like to close with one of the most powerful quotes ever written on the subject, by noted author C.S. Lewis in his classic, Mere Christianity:
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon, or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come away with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
Yes Jesus died physically in every sence of the word so that He might be raised imperishable. The diety of Messiah never died however.
Just talked to 2 Jehovah's witnesses today and as a result it went as follows,
We compared translations - luckily I had read this post less than 4 hrs. earlier. I maintain my previous post and also recommend a look at the new world translation for those familiar with the KJV- there are many differences and the KJV I choose as my source along with a strong's concordance.
They say Jesus was a created being. Don't think so.
They say Jesus is a god. Don't think so. Jesus is God.
They affirmed they were not "Russellites" whoever that is?
I did not question the blood sacrifice as the two I talked to
3 months ago agreed that Jesus was crucified.
The nwt was closed and it was apparent we had come to some disagreement with what they called "versions."
We also discussed the scriptures in 1 John about one denying the Son or the Father and that that was the spirit of anti-christ. The canon of scripture I am thankful for (KJV) and I will continue to stay on Gods word for the scriptures testify of Christ Jesus.
Knowing what a fine line it is on doctrinal issues I was satisfied I had made my point, Who knows if they had made theirs?
I will say I used scripture from the KJV to defend my belief.
One Called :I agree with you God did not die.
In Isaiah 9:6 we see: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
I was not going to respond to this post again, yet I will answer your question.
Later we see what God in Jesus accomplished: Wonderful- miracle worker
Counsellor- Rabbi of rulers and teachers -THE MIGHTY GOD- God from age to age- The Prince of Peace -Conquering death hell and the grave. The trinity is not mentioned as something that should be said, but in mentioning God the Father's person, spirit or name we are commanded not to be silent.
One called: Isnt it ironic that you would be so thin skinned as to take offence to my remarks or my misreading on your position when you cavilierly dismiss the diety of the King of Kings. However no insult was intented. Whether you go by "JW" or "Arianist" it does not matter. You denie Christ His rightful position in your heart. Your claims that the plurality of God is catholic in origin is not accurate. Suggest the works of Augustine to clarify.
No offense taken...just making it clear that I am no part of any earthly organization...
I do not deny the deity of Christ, nor do I deny him his rightful place, in heaven or in my heart.
Never have I claimed that trinity is catholic in origin...It goes back farther than that.
Seems that you are the one taking offense.
Trinity doctrine is heaped in Babylon and is a lie.
I love what I read in these here icredible personal romances... That's why I have those easy questions to ask...
Can any of you explain to me, and to any other who never asked before never new this kind of asking-sights and terminologies. How many WINGS does the normal angles and the archeangels have? On their backs, of course, where I believed those incredible miracles should have grown up on them....
and...
if God is in three persons..., - what is in the rest?
and...
God in the midst of a burning bush, YES, but you don't know why, of course!
and...
...enmity between you and the woman - means also between a means head and a womans what?
It is a real fun.., but do you really read Bibles? As I can see all you do is what you say & expose of yourself in this way, and this is just the incredible emptiness, but... very, very rich this endless dreaming...
What do you think God does when God looks into the mouth' of those who use their toungues as a way to lead & let come out for life to what? Or for whom the mouth and toungue is for, at all...?
And to those who mentioned and talk about catolicism and catolics but forgot and miss to mension the Main Linking LINK, try to explain, but first READ ABOUT it over and over again, so should all the catolics do first of all, also the protestants too, if didn't know it from before, listen to them therafter, because catolicism is far more older than swiss-made or german-made and familiar protestantism is.., but now back to the subject again;
why in old Egypt the very bloody & deadly fights that was going & going on, inbetween the hungry cats and the muses that always were more than just clever enought funny small beasts, and escaped each time, of course. You see, Cats hated & still hate all the Muses. But, do you know why...? This you shall learn to know! For real! That's why to start to read seriously about it is the best thing to do. And than when it's done, come back and talk about.., and then you know what to say.
You see, I myself always wonder & wonder and like to know all about it, but it is for real very hard to get or receive just like that from up there, and my question still is; where in hell is the toilet to find in Heaven...?
Shalom, with peace to all. But let the words be in fight for ever!
One called, Things can get turned around in here, so Im glad no offence was given. I have found no sound evidence of trinitarianism in babylon except through JW literature. I am curious how you respond to Baptistic's "Imanuel" quote. To portray Jesus as "a god" sounds idolotrous if not a violation of the first commandment.
Surely the plurality of God is displayed through both testaments starting with God creating man in "Our" image while accepting worship as God by Tomas and John. Faith may not understand the evidence {but then again who would have seen Messiah in the tabernacle} but it accepts the testimony of scripture. Yes?
I am new to this board, but "studied" with JW's off and on for almost 20 years, they use a book called 'The Two Babylons or The Papal Worship
by Rev A. Hislop who was not a jw who wrote the book as a slam to the roman catholic church on holiday, mary worship, purgatory, the soverignty of the pope, sign of the cross, rosary and the trinity. The book claims all this is from worship in babylon of King nimrod and his wife.
whether it is 100% true is questionable, but they use it to their people as proof that others beside JWs believe that all this stuff is rooted in pagan worship.
rose