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I came across this today. It is Augustine (yes, the loathsome idiot) making comments about election, saying that electing one thing does not mean not electing the other. What I was thrilled to read in this quotation is that he confirms the fact that a choice is made according to its relevance to the purposes at hand, not according to some abstract "merit":

http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/Aug...God6-3.htm

So, God "chooses" the poor and God "chooses" Jakob, but the POINT is that he "chooses" those who accord to his *purpose.*

At any rate, check out the A-man.

Norsk: I've yet to meet two calvinists who agree totally in degrees so I guess on some levels your ascertation of calvinism as it applies to hyper calvinism would apply. Originally however Calvin never formulated his teachings into TULIP and I'm thinking the council of dort got out of it what they saw fit.
Jacob Arminias is often portrayed as a staunch opposer to calvin yet originally he held to a total depravity of sorts. Both men provided interesting theories on the working of election yet I believe they were not as sure of their position as we give them credit for.

Cor: I kinda think that Jesus was addressing Peters statement, even as He had addressed Peters statement "Thou are the Messiah" as being the rock for the church {temple} to be established.  

norisk,

I'm afraid on several points you're showing you misunderstand Calvinism.  We don't say that man isn't as depraved as they possibliy could be.  The T in TULIP indicates that man is totally w/o ability to come to God on their own.  Many Calvinists prefer the term Total Innability for clarity.  Since our fall into depravity in the garden, "there is none that seeks after God", "there is none righteous, no not one", man's thoughts are "continually evil".  Before we're born again, even our seemingly "good" deeds are done for reasons other than to glorify God.  What must happen is that God must supernaturally intervene to awaken (quicken) us - to give us a heart that seeks him (Jer 31) - to make us born again.  That is done by and at the decision of the Holy Spirit - John 3.  Only after we are born again, we can we repent, submit to God's savior, and then do "good" or "righteous" deeds, because only then do we have a aligned heart towards the true God and thus we can do these things for the right reason - to glorify God.  Our righteousness comes through God by faith, e.g. Abraham - Gen 15:6  "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness".  Even though Abraham sinned before and after this act of faith, he was considered righteous because he receivied his righteousness from God through faith.  Abraham's righteousness was imputed to him by way of faith in  the savior Yeshua ("Abraham rejoiced to see my day", Job awaited his Reedeemer in Job 19, etc).  Our righteousness is not of ourselves, it's of our Redeemer.

So when you sum up all the religions, it ultimately boils down to 2 choices - do you want to establish your righteousness on your own or are you looking to God for righteousness.  Only the Messianic faith recieves it's righteousness from above.

And that's why I can say - Blessings in Messiah!

Joshua, I agree that Calvin never would have agreed with TULIP.

None of the letters in TULIP is biblical. It is a completely bogus and morally repugnant philosophy.

Norsk: Not completely repugnant. As a matter of fact it might be completewly accurate however we really don't have enough information to to nail down election in every occasion. What if God did follow that format in some occasions yet made exceptions in others? Who could say that He was unjust by showing extra mercy to some?
The key question is whether man retains the ability after the fall to react to the gospel or is there nothing left to be kindled by the Holy Spirit. Personally I lean towards soveriegn election. The judicial aspects of limited atonement works well. Predestination works with the foreknowlege of God. Perserverance of the saints works well with Gods ability to preserve. It's a balancing act in which God determines where to set the fulcrum.  

That is a fascinating distinction. "Continually evil" - but it could be worse! But the clip from Rom 3 applies only to Jews of a certain time, not all people for all time.



So, in your mind, there are sinners who are born again, and have a heart that seeks God, but are not Christians?



Where specifically does John 3 say such a ridiiculous thing?

(to be continued shortly..."

Continued...


So, one is born again, regenerate, seeking God, a heart aligned towards the true God and capable of all good works... - but not yet repentant?



You say he was considered righteous "because he received his righteousness" - this adds another layer of complexity absent from the text.



No, Abraham *believed God* about the "stars for multitude" thing (note that he did not notice that God, when he slipped his arm over Abe's shoulder in blessing him, also stuck a "Kick Me" sign on Abe's back)...

Again, you are muddying the water with levels of complexity that are not there in the text.



I have not read this in any Jewish commentary, but I imagine that Jews prefer the more obvious reading - that Abraham counted the blessing as divine faithfulness.... but leaving that for the moment...

This is the simple, stripped down Pauline interpretation of the Abe event:

"Abraham believed God [about his promise of the land and the multitude of children] and God counted Abraham's belief of his word as if it were righteousness."

All of the Jesus stuff you interpolate is not in the OT or NT text at all.

In the NT, this simple paradigm serves as the paradigm of justification on the basis of one's faith - it is not in any way to be confused with the paradigm of "justification by Jesus" as found in modern pop Calvinsism.

Jesus does not justify anyone. God justifies sinners on the basis of their faith. Jesus, we are told in the scriptures, justified God (Romans 3.

And by the way, I find the many restrictions on this forum very aggravating.. short posts... wait 60 seconds... moderation... mistaken messages about posted replies...yeesh....

My view is that by God's providence, all who are born again come to trust in the "seed" (Messiah) sent by God as their savior/redeemer.  Note, the classic Reformed ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)



Jhn 3:1   Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;  
Jhn 3:2   this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God {as} a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."  
Jhn 3:3   Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."  
Jhn 3:4   Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"  
Jhn 3:5   Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  
Jhn 3:6   "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  
Jhn 3:7   "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'  
Jhn 3:8   "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."  

Note that "Nick at Night" came to Jesus to gain revelation from a prophet, maybe he was seeking what he had to do to gain eternal life.  Instead of giving special "secret knowledge" or some method to attain heaven, Yeshua says something totally unexpected.  Instead of telling Nick what he can do, Yeshua says what the Holy Spirit must do!  He says that it's up to the choice of the Spirit to decide if, when, and how v8.  Salvation is of God, not of man, lest any man should boast.  The book of John, especially chapters 3, 6, 10 is a powerful testimony of the providence of God in salvation.

Repentant after being born again.


Yes, it's an argument Paul made by analyzing several texts.


Or about the promised "seed"...

Norsk: Jesus does not justify anyone. God justifies sinners on the basis of their faith. Jesus, we are told in the scriptures, justified God (Romans 3.

Is this a typo?
Justification comes from the offering of Messiah.
Jesus justified God?