JFJ Forums

SMR you make a good point - Paul wouldn't say he converted from Rabbinic Judaism to Messianic Judaism.  I would agree that "conversion" is not the best term.  Transitioning from being a traditional Jew to a Messianic Jew is probably better called reformation or transformation.  But the transition is signifigant though - it's a change from death to life.  Yeshua didn't teach a new religion, rather he was reforming the Judaism of his day to be Scriptural (much like the Protestant reformation reformed Christianity).  He never criticized the Scriptures (he said they could not be broken and that not one jot or title would fail to be fufilled).  But he did reform the false traditions/interpretations.  He pointed out several areas in which their "tradition" contradicted Scripture.  He called for a restoration of the true meaning/spirit of the law vs. the empty religiosity of merely following the letter of the law w/o doing it for the right reason (in the right spirit).  Sounds just like G-d in Isaiah 1 (esp. v13-14) doesn't it?

G-d isn't impressed with our mere religious observation - he doesn't need to hear us repeat certain phrases, see us perform certain rituals, etc, rather he wants our heart.  The 613 laws in the Torah were not given to Adam or even to Abraham - they weren't necessary.  The 613 laws were a means to an end, not an end unto themselves.  The laws were added due to transgression.  Only a small core of the laws (the 10 commandments  which we all innately know) are fundamental (eternally relevant) - the rest were added because Israel was too immature to keep the 10 w/o further instruction.  As you go through the Torah, note how each chunk of laws were added after transgression.  Often the new laws are directly related to the formers sin, e.g. food issues, priest issues, etc.  The masterpiece on this topic is Dr. John Sailhamer's book "The Pentateuch as Narrative".  It's a MUST read.
[to be continued]

[continued]
Again, G-d isn't ultimately interested in us performing rituals, he's about our heart - a heart that fears him, loves him, and recognizes our desparate need for forgiveness and reconciliation with him.  In many ways it's like what we as parents want from our kids.  We want their trust, respect, love, and obedience.  We want them to recognize that we know what's best for them.  The extra rules we give them are to help them trust, respect, love, and obey us.  The more responsible they are, the less rules, the less responsible, the more rules.  This is consistent with what we see in the NT.  NT believers (as were Adam/Eve and even Abraham) are led by the Spirit.  We are back to a small number of laws - we are to allow the Spirit to guide us on how best to keep these fundamental laws.  We are to listen to the Spirit through our conscience to make mature decisions.  This is in contrast to Spiritless Israel in the wilderness - the Torah said they were totally irresponsible  and required strict supervision (stiff-necked) and thus the 613 laws.  They had the law to keep them in line, but ultimately they needed much more - they needed redemption and a new heart (Jeremiah 31).  Redemption was provided in the promised Messiah and the new covenant promise of a new heart (Jeremiah 31) has been provided to some already, but to the rest of Israel one day future (Romans 11).

Blessings in Messiah!

p.s.  Did Jesus and the apostles start a new religion?
  

Exod.16
[10] And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

I just noticed my link got chopped off:

Did Jesus and the apostles start a new religion?
   http://www.richlandcreek.com/studies/RCMF-06-01-07.m3u

Rom.4
[17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Y'shua Ha'moshiach the King.

Micah 5
[2] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Matthew 2
[6] And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Thanks, Ripley's, all I see in Matthew is the prevailing truth.

Acts 1

[13] And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

There is fatigue factor attributed to Matthew as He may have penned the story (abundance of revelation, etc.) in a hurry, which may account for some of the negative textural criticism. Mark probably came later on. John and then Luke, as you have already noted in Luke, many attempted to set forth the gospel accurately. I must give Brian Roy great credit for showing much earlier dating for the gospels than "most" critical scholarship! This site is a pleasure, and I have a great deal more to say the more I read God's word.

THE THIRD DAY SAYS:
_____________________________________________________________
"SMR you make a good point - Paul wouldn't say he converted from Rabbinic Judaism to Messianic Judaism.  I would agree that "conversion" is not the best term.
__________________________________________________________

MUST BE CONVERTED!

So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said
one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,
Saying,
‘Go to this people and say:
Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed.
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear
With their ears.
Lest they should understand with their hearts
And be CONVERTED
So that I should heal them.’”
[ACTS 28:25-27]

ISAIAH 6:9-10

  And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘keep on hearing, but do not understand:
keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

“Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and shut their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and CONVERT and be healed.”

SHALOM!
RAB  

rayburghen,

In Isaiah 6, the word for converted is 'shuwb' which seems to have a meaning closer to "return or restore" rather than "convert".  I'd say Isaiah is talking about returning to faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob vs. converting to a brand new faith.

The greek translation in Acts 28 uses the word 'epistrepho' which can mean either to turn or return.

My point (which I think you would agree with) is that Messianic Judaism is not a new religion invented in the first century.  It's the faith of Abrahmam, Isaac, and Jacob.  It's the faith that has been distorted and corrupted by Rabinnic Judaism.

But, I think we wholeheartedly agree that to become a believer in Messianic Judaism is a huge conversion of the soul.  It's a DRAMATIC change of the heart, a supernatural change that is caused by the Holy Spirit - John 3:3-6.

Anyway, I think our difference is merly semantics.

But aren't you a Messianic gentile (gentile Christian) who is Presbyterian? So, why stay in even the PCA (or OPC) church if you believe in being denominationally Messianic Jewish?

Hi GoyOfY'shua,

Yes, I'm a Messianic gentile.  Scripturally, I do not believe G-d requires we be "denominationally Messianic Jewish".  We are free to or not to participate in the various Jewish traditions.  I choose to participate in a Messianic fellowship every Shabbat, buy my home church is not as well versed in their Jewish roots.  But I get the opportunity to help show them about those roots on a regular basis.