JFJ Forums

tj: You make claims here that have no scriptural support. All covenants were entered into by parties who understood and were capable of reason. One facet of baptism is repentance. This can never be imposed by the will of man but rather through the convicting of the Spirit.
The harm perpetrated here is denying the Spirits rightfull place in the sanctifying experience.

But then, why did Y'shua HaNotzri come as a little child two years before Herod decided to kill all Jewish children who were two and under? Would Y'shua ben-Miryam purposely provoke Herod to murder children?  

tj: You make claims here that have no scriptural support. All covenants were entered into by parties who understood and were capable of reason. One facet of baptism is repentance. This can never be imposed by the will of man but rather through the convicting of the Spirit.
The harm perpetrated here is denying the Spirits rightfull place in the sanctifying experience.
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Hi Joshua,

Actually you will find in 1Cor1:16.  Here Paul is baptizing the  householdof Stephanas.  Doesn't say 'except 'infants and children.
                                                
  and then the verses which refer to letting the children come to Jesus:  like  Luke 18:15

These verses the church interprets the importance of the graces one receives in baptism, even an infant.  This child then will grow with the grace of salvation, but of course, he/she has a lifetime in accepting or rejecting that salvation.

Robin                    

Don't see what you question has to do with anything...
The pharaoh killed all Hebrew children 2 and under as a form of birth control
Herod killed all children 2 and under bacause the Kings of the East had been travelling 2 years following the Star so he killed the children to prevent a true King of Israel from overthrowing him.
As to the  question of infant baptism....If the parents of the baby are baptised and Holy Ghost filled they cover the child until he comes to an age where he can make his decision to be baptised.  There is no scripture for infant baptism
  All babies born of man are born with original sin if they die at birth God judges what happens to them not us.

The only passage that addresses the issue would be David after the death of his infant son. He said that he would go to him {assumably David was a man after Gods heart and He will be seen in heaven}.

tj: Household refered to all "servants" however there was never a baptism for infants in either culture. Under the environment that it was written no one would have remotely assumed that wter regeneration apart from repentance was effective. Infants do not have the capacity to accept or reject covenants {such has been offered by Messiah}.
No such scripture. It is an assumption. Also Jesus said "do not ....Little children..... {not infants}. To say that baptism apart from consent is efficasious in any way might as well find a defence in the "baptism for the dead" which also has no credence.
So in this theology what happens to the infant that is not baptised? Limbo? Careful before you answer.

hmm...Im new here..but dont think that will stop me expressing my opinions. Dont be scared.
Is there a close relationship between "Christianity"(Roman Catholicism, Orthadoxy and their offshoot daughter churches, Protestant included) and Judaism? Are we meaning Judaism being the religion of Christ?
In my opinion, and in scriptural opinion, no. One is clearly Alien to God, and the other is, of course, of God.
This may be a sweeping claim, (and I can say I dont know what JFJ's doctrinal leanings really are,) but the truth is contemporary "Christianity" today is not Christianity at all.
The sad reason for it is that most Christians dont really even know what it is that they worship, their scriptures, let alone their general historical ignorance over the topic. THis is not an arrogant statement its just fact.
Sadly this devide is lead by a couple millenia of ignorance, misunderstanding, fear and well...deciet. And that can be found on both sides of Jews and Christians..but MOSTLY on the side of Christians.
The scriptures clearly indicate the Laws are still to be upheld, Foods are still to be kosher,Holydays are to be kept, and that Sunday is NOT the day of worship nor is it the Lords day.
There is a lot I contend with what is shamefully labeled Christianity...
now as a believer in Yeshua, and a non-Jew as such...I now live as a Jew and according to the word of God..not the traditions of men. Something oddly enough thrown at Judaizers by so called Christians.
It will take a lot to fully explain why Christianity has got it so so wrong...but in short...its mainstream definitions...well, couldnt be further from the teachings of Christ. And their history shows it.
Lets not forget after all, Christ was a Jew and lived as a Jew. He isntructed his followers to follow the teachings of the Pharisees (yet not their hypocracy.)
Indeed, the same can be said for all the Apostles..contrary to many "Christian" claims.
But all one needs to do is study the scriptures and they can see. And I dont just mean using your standard KJV either. It takes some actual research. After all, the KJV was not the original print. I dont think Christ read from the Hebrew and then went.."woah! Where the heck is my KJV?"
Neither did Paul or Peter for that matter. People seem to forget that and have become over reliant on and too pro-KJV. Trust me, learn the Greek Versions and you'll soon realise how inaccurate the KJV is in places.
Anyway...Ive said my piece. Well, more like a rant. But hey at least I didnt throw out countless pieces of references and examples to frustrate you. Nah..Id rather you had to go out there and think. That is..if you paid any attention to me.

Asher, as far as I know, there is nothing wrong with stating what you believe on this forum. With that in mind, welcome to the forum.

I don't often see Gentiles wanting to be observant Jews but then again, I really haven't been around that much.

I'm sure that you will admit that there are stages in life just as there have been stages in history. There was a time when there was no Israel... there was truth to be taught and proclaimed but there was no Israel and no Law of Moses to keep. Then the Bible says that God formed Israel and a law was given for Israel to keep. Jewish people will tell me the Law was given for Jews to keep forever. I really can't argue with that and everyone should know that the Law was physically impossible to keep because of various exiles and the destruction of the Temple. Today no one can keep the Law of Moses. If we break part of the Law... it is broken... but there are some things to remember.

The Bible speaks of keeping God's word from the heart. That is, we should love God, love His word and love each other because that is what the Law of Moses is about. No greater love has no one than to give up His life for His friends. No greater love is there than the love that God has for us. So Jesus kept the Law of Moses and the Law of God in giving His life for us. Not only was Jesus perfect in every way, He lived and died by His perfection. He took the thorns on Himself that were the result of our sin.

All in all, New Covenant Law is more demanding or more fulfilling of God's Law than Mosaic Law. It is not a keep-it-if-you-can kind of a thing. It is more a keep-it-or-burn kind of a thing. Y'shua said that we will all be baptized with fire. Without sanctification, no one will see the Lord. Salvation is through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth... that has been around longer than the Law of Moses.

If you ask me, not too much has changed. The only thing that has changed is our time-line in history.

Shalom!

I personally believe in having the new baby anointed and dedicated to God.
Even though this is not in the Bible, it has my heart and I believe it is a song from Heaven. Children who die belong to Jesus and as the song say's Jesus will take them by the hand and lead them to the better land.
.

Jesus calls the children dear,
“Come to me and never fear,
For I love the little children of the world;
I will take you by the hand,
Lead you to the better land,
For I love the little children of the world.”
Jesus loves the little children,
All the children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white,
All are precious in His sight,
Jesus loves the little children of the world.
Jesus died for all the children,
All the children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white,
All are precious in His sight,
Jesus died for all the children of the world.]
Jesus is the Shepherd true,
And He’ll always stand by you,
For He loves the little children of the world;
He’s a Savior great and strong,
And He’ll shield you from the wrong,
For He loves the little children of the world.
I am coming, Lord, to Thee,
And Your soldier I will be,
For You love the little children of the world;
And Your cross I’ll always bear,
And for You I’ll do and dare,
For You love the little children of the world.

I think Christs "New Laws" are in fact an abbreviated form of the Mosaic Laws. Christ wasnt actually the first...or I should say, the only one to have said some of the things he said or have done this.

That may seem blasphemous to some..but I guess in a fleshly sense, its true. Before Christ summed up the Mosaic law in a sentence, a great Jewish Scholar, Hillell, actually did much the same when asked to explain the entire Torah. He said "That which is hateful to you do not do unto others. The rest is commentary. Now go study."
I think you will find that Christ new Covenant wasnt in fact a new one at all. The Mosaic laws (which infact were given by the pre-incarnate Christ to Moses, as scripture reveals) were summed up by the "Carnate" Christ and still endorsed. It was the Sacrificial System which was "replaced" by the new covenant. (A handy replacement given the destruction of the temple, as well as judicial and religious authority being stripped from the Jews.) Essentially it was the same thing. Only more powerful. It was the sacrifice of the Meshiach not that of bulls etc, that atoned for sin as required in Levitical Law. The eternal Law of God. You also have to remember that the Mosaic law was a Keep it or "burn" thing as well. The Death penalty was the ruling on breaking much of the Mosiac laws. So again, not much has changed still either. OT- stoning, NT- Burning.
Much of this tradition of the so called OT being done away with is a false anti-jewish teaching as well. One most so called Christians seem to beleive, to their own detriment.
As for there being a period of no law..Im not sure I can adhere to that train of thought. Clearly Gods laws did exist pre Moses...its just that the Israelites were not aware of them fully. But if you study B'rishit you will see, by example of the sanctification of the Sabbath that Commandment #4 existed long before the Decalogue. And through many passages the Torah and commandments of God are described as eternal. As eternity does not have a beginning, then they must be pre Mosaic..not to mention Post-Cross.

Generally speaking, the more people you have, the more Laws you need. People will always be looking for a way around what they should be doing and they will find a way around through imperfect reasoning. So fine point need to be explained in a way people will understand so they will not do something they should regret doing.

Before Moses, there were acceptable actions and there were those that were not acceptable. I did not say there was no Law at all, just that there was no Israel and no Law of Moses. There are also the Noahide Laws. That was not the point I was making. I even said that truth has been around longer than Moses. Truth is something we are to practice. That's what all Laws are: Truth in practice.

The truth is that we are forgiven. The practice is that there is no reason not to forgive others. There is nothing to lose and nothing to hold on to because everything belongs to God.

The true story of how we are forgiven is a big part of our practice.

I believe we are agreed that there really is nothing new except for each new day. The truth that is today, always was. Our practice should be such that it accurately portrays the truth of God... which is in Messiah Y'shua.

Shalom!