I think Christs "New Laws" are in fact an abbreviated form of the Mosaic Laws. Christ wasnt actually the first...or I should say, the only one to have said some of the things he said or have done this.
That may seem blasphemous to some..but I guess in a fleshly sense, its true. Before Christ summed up the Mosaic law in a sentence, a great Jewish Scholar, Hillell, actually did much the same when asked to explain the entire Torah. He said "That which is hateful to you do not do unto others. The rest is commentary. Now go study."
I think you will find that Christ new Covenant wasnt in fact a new one at all. The Mosaic laws (which infact were given by the pre-incarnate Christ to Moses, as scripture reveals) were summed up by the "Carnate" Christ and still endorsed. It was the Sacrificial System which was "replaced" by the new covenant. (A handy replacement given the destruction of the temple, as well as judicial and religious authority being stripped from the Jews.) Essentially it was the same thing. Only more powerful. It was the sacrifice of the Meshiach not that of bulls etc, that atoned for sin as required in Levitical Law. The eternal Law of God. You also have to remember that the Mosaic law was a Keep it or "burn" thing as well. The Death penalty was the ruling on breaking much of the Mosiac laws. So again, not much has changed still either. OT- stoning, NT- Burning.
Much of this tradition of the so called OT being done away with is a false anti-jewish teaching as well. One most so called Christians seem to beleive, to their own detriment.
As for there being a period of no law..Im not sure I can adhere to that train of thought. Clearly Gods laws did exist pre Moses...its just that the Israelites were not aware of them fully. But if you study B'rishit you will see, by example of the sanctification of the Sabbath that Commandment #4 existed long before the Decalogue. And through many passages the Torah and commandments of God are described as eternal. As eternity does not have a beginning, then they must be pre Mosaic..not to mention Post-Cross.
HILLIEL SAID VERY LITTLE!
Hillel said:"That which is hateful to you do not do unto others. The rest is commentary. Now go study."
Jesus said:
M't:7:12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
WHY IS IT THE LAW OF THE PROPHETS?
BECAUSE THE PROPHETS IN MANY CASES GAVE THE WORD OF GOD TO REBELLIOUS ISRAEL AND THAN WERE IMPRISIONED, CHASED AND EVEN KILLED. THE PERFECT EXAMPLE WAS THE BAPTIST HOUNDING HEROD AND HE GOT KILLED FOR WANTING HEROD TO REPENT. THAT IS LOVE.
SO WHY DID ELIJAH SLAY THE ENEMIES. BECAUSE IT WAS GOD'S JUDGMENT ON THEM.
M't:5:43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
M't:5:44: But I say unto you,
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
2Sa:22:41: Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them that hate me.
LOOKS to me as part of a New Covenant, keep preaching to them but don't hate them. Hate what they do but not them. Do no violence.
I think its a matter of being held responsible for the amount of revelation given. Asher makes some good point with the word "new".
I believe "completely sufficient" might express it better.
I observe a couple of things, and please tell me if I'm wrong.
- I see Roman Catholics such as creosmary not helping the argument that Roman Catholicism and Messianic Judaism (true Judaism) are hand-in-hand.
- With Roman Catholics like Sean Hannity, Dick Morris, and david, I see them having potential to be closer to true Judaism if they just left the Roman Catholic church.
- I think the legalism and Isaiah 29:13 description are seen in the Roman Catholic church, which seems to be helping legalism and turning away or secularizing potential Christians.
- My arguments stem from my own Roman Catholic background, as my mom and dad grew up Roman Catholic; the majority of my family are secular or heavily-endoctrinated and legalistic Roman Catholics; and I've seen how Roman Catholicism provoked some of my family, friends, and people I've seen or heard of be either former Roman Catholics (and now Protestant or nothing at all) or on the secular or legalistic side of Roman Catholicism.
There is a difference between being born sinful (which everyone is) and being old enough to be held accountable for your own sinfulness (which very young children aren't).
If we are to be held accountable for our sins from the moment of birth, what happens to the babies that die soon after birth, without being baptised? Do they go to hell?
Common sense tells us of course they don't. Why? Because Jesus watches over these little ones like a hen watches over her newborn chicks, wrapping them up under her wings. Whilst under her physical protection, they cannot be harmed or even reached by the predatory foe. But when they get too big to be able to be covered by her protective wings anymore, she relies on them being sensible (or scared) enough to stay close to her. And when they grow even more independent, she uses her voice to let them know where she is, in case they stray far from her.
Is any of this giving you a picture of God's behaviour towards us?
Matt 18:1-4: 'At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."'
Matt 18:10: '"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."'
Even if a child is made unclean by the actions of an adult, Jesus is clear that it is the adult who will be called to account, not the child. He compares their ordeal to having a millstone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea.
By the way, no Godmother or Godfather expects to have to raise a dead person's children these days (at least in the Orthodox church) because usually the grandparents step in. This may be different in the Catholic tradition, in which case please accept my apologies for ignorance. But in the Orthodox tradition the baptism service serves 2 main functions: giving the child his/her legal name (the Christening); and making the child an official member of the Orthodox church. Before that, s/he is not allowed to participate in church life (take communion etc.).
For what it's worth, I agree with you Seekmosttoprophesy......<><
There is a difference between being born sinful (which everyone is) and being old enough to be held accountable for your own sinfulness (which very young children aren't).
If we are to be held accountable for our sins from the moment of birth, what happens to the babies that die soon after birth, without being baptised? Do they go to hell?
Common sense tells us of course they don't. Why? Because Jesus watches over these little ones like a hen watches over her newborn chicks, wrapping them up under her wings. Whilst under her physical protection, they cannot be harmed or even reached by the predatory foe. But when they get too big to be able to be covered by her protective wings anymore, she relies on them being sensible (or scared) enough to stay close to her. And when they grow even more independent, she uses her voice to let them know where she is, in case they stray far from her.
Is any of this giving you a picture of God's behaviour towards us?
Matt 18:1-4: 'At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."'
Matt 18:10: '"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."'
Even if a child is made unclean by the actions of an adult, Jesus is clear that it is the adult who will be called to account, not the child. He compares their ordeal to having a millstone tied around their neck and thrown into the sea.
By the way, no Godmother or Godfather expects to have to raise a dead person's children these days (at least in the Orthodox church) because usually the grandparents step in. This may be different in the Catholic tradition, in which case please accept my apologies for ignorance. But in the Orthodox tradition the baptism service serves 2 main functions: giving the child his/her legal name (the Christening); and making the child an official member of the Orthodox church. Before that, s/he is not allowed to participate in church life (take communion etc.).
very true as we are born its our parents that take the responsibility over us to help us grow in the right path.
as we get older The responsibility starts to lay ON us.
The parents Job is to set us on the right path but it our Job to stay on this path.
I didn’t know this thread existed. I was thinking of starting one because of so many similarities between Catholicism and Judaism. I’ve dealt with some of these in other threads and it became difficult to concisely get the message across. I’m in the process of presenting the material in web-site format which should help. I’ve done a lot of research in this area and the similarities are striking. I found Catholicism to be more true to Jewish roots than my experiences in Messianic Judaism. My experience from the one MJ congregation that I’ve attended is that it was very much aligned with Evangelical Protestant beliefs and practices (maybe it’s different at other MJ congregations). Anyhow, here are some of the similarities that I plan on exploring more deeply in my web-site:
Sola-Scriptura: Jews do not believe in Sola-scriptura – they believe Moses was also given an oral Torah (recorded in Talmud). Catholics believe God speaks to us through sacred scripture AND sacred tradition. Protestants believe that the only infallible revelation comes through scripture.
Liturgical worship: As in the Synagogue, Catholic corporal worship is liturgical in style, mirroring the liturgical worship in heaven. My experience with MJ worship is that, like modern Evangelical worship, it is not liturgical at all and the service consists of about an hour of worship music and about an hour of sermon. Holy Communion is rarely celebrated.
Eucharist (todah): The thanksgiving offering of the Passover Lamb. This is the fulfillment of the Pasover. The similarities between the Eucharist and the Passover could fill volumes.
Baptism (mikveh/circumcission): Entering into a covenant relationship, cleansing, regenerative. Most Protestants hold to similar views. The MJ congregation I’ve attended hold that baptism is merely symbolic.
(More …)
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Apostolic Succession (Semicha): Ordination of Rabbis and Catholic Church leaders. Jews believe in rabbinic succession back to Moses. Catholics (and many orthodox) believe in Apostolic Succession back to Jesus. MJs reject apostolic succession.
The Pope (Al-bayit): Earthly leader of the Church and the “Master of the Palace” (Mt 16 and Is 22:22). MJs reject a universal, earthly leader of The Kingdom.
Purgatory (Gehenna): Jews and Catholics both believe in a place of sanctification and efficacious prayers for those who have passed on. MJs reject this.
Church (Qahal) as a tangible and not merely spiritual organization: Jews and Catholics believe that God manifests himself in real, physical, tangible ways whether it be a burning bush, a pillar of smoke, or in the arc or the holy of holies. Catholics believe in the true, physical, real presence of the triune God in the Eucharist.
In my opinion, the Catholic Church is more Jewish than any of the Protestant services I’ve been to. In my opinion, based on the Messianic Jewish congregation I’ve occasionally worshiped at for 2 years now, (it may be different with other congregations) the MJ worship follows the Evangelical worship style (about an hours worth of worship music and an hours worth of sermon and rarely, if ever, celebration of communion).
So these are some of the similarities. Here are some links to other Hebrew Catholic sites:
http://www.israelcatholic.com/
http://hebrewcatholic.org/
http://www.catholic.co.il/
wk~
In my opinion, the Catholic Church is more Jewish than any of the Protestant services I’ve been to.
My
brother, I have agreed with you on this in many of those threads you mention. However, not "Jewish" in the good, faith-based, biblical patriarch way. "Jewish" in the tradition of men contorting scripture, unfounded doctrine, works-oriented kind of way.
I don't why the similarity should surprise anyone. Mimickry is the sincerest form of flattery. HaSatan cannot create anything, but only mimic what G-d has already done. What they are doing is no different than when the sons of Korah tried to usurp the priesthood. We (now) have ONE mediator between G-d and man, the HIGH PRIEST of our CONFESSION, which is Yeshua. In addition to that, we are told to call no man our Father, and not to make graven images, both of which they do.
I don't know if it's still in print, but there is an amazing testimony of a man called Mel Tari. I cannot remember which third world country he comes from, but I was blessed to meet him over 20 years ago. He was called of G-d at 19 when he got a bible. There were both Catholic missionaries with churches in his land, as well as the people there were caught up in pagan witchcraft beliefs. He said that Yeshua was able to use him as well as some young men He raised up with him, in remarkable ways, because what they read in the book, they believed, plain and simple.
We are somewhat handicapped, believe it or not, in this country, because there are churches on every corner essentially telling us what NOT to believe, in the book.
So one of his stories related an experience they had in one village. In this village he came to, nearly everyone there was now Catholic. He went to speak to the priest, and as he looked around at all the statues of the "saints", he told the priest that was against G-d's wishes to have them.
The Catholic priest refused to take them down. Mel told him to put them in the middle of the church, and he would ask G-d to make his feelings on it known. The priest brought down a few, not all, and set them in the middle of the floor. Mel prayed and literal fire came down from heaven to consume the idols. The priest got so excited he went and got all the idols and threw them in the fire.
The village people came running with buckets of water, because all saw fire on top of the church roof, in the night sky. When they got there they realized the fire was not consuming the roof, and they marveled at the sight and then went in to find that the fire that consumed the idols, did no damage to the floor they were on. The Catholic priest became a changed man, and as a result, so did the rest of the village.
G-d is able to do great things where there is no evil heart of unbelief. Yeshua said this when He said that He could do no great works in "home town", because of their unbelief. They only looked at the flesh of the man they knew, the same as themselves, instead of at the anointing on the Son of G-d, they didn't know. The same is true today, many times.