To me it is not important if Jesus was the Messiah. I don't need a Messiah to believe in one G_d and to live by the 10 Commandments. Fact is that I often ask Rabbi's or other knowledgeable Jews "if we are waiting for the Messiah... then why not Jesus? I get answers that are not substantial or meaningful to me. But I ask Christians... Jesus was a Jew, his messages as a Rabbi were meaningful... why must you think he was G_d? It is his teachings that are important and Christians spend most of their time talking about how and why he died. My theory is that if he died for our sins... the sin was saying and thinking that he was G_d. That would be the sin and why G_d would have taken him!
Bottom line, I respect Jesus as a great Profit and teacher. His disciples went out to recruit the non-believers by making up stories that would accomplish their mission (missionaries). I believe that people are drawn to Jesus because he is a material being that one can put a face to. G_d is a spirit and difficult to visualize. To me it is no different that the idols that many of the Jews were worshiping when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai with the 10 Commandments.
One thing I will say... there are no truer Christians than the Jews for Jesus. Jesus was a Jew whose mission was to influence his followers who were Jews. The Messianic Jews are the true Christians ... the Jewish followers of Jesus.
2 Timothy 2:19 NIV
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
John 7:17 NIV
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
John 8:58 NIV
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 5:46 NIV
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
As it is you don't believe the scriptures so how then will you believe us? We have been telling you that the Christ has come and that the Father has given us of His Spirit as was promised - yet you refuse to believe us.
Do you want miracles? Will you believe then?
To me it is not important if Jesus was the Messiah. I don't need a Messiah to believe in one G_d and to live by the 10 Commandments.
Hey Howie!
Shalom!
There has to be a Messiah to take away our sins because without that perfect and complete provision, there is no Holy Spirit and no relationship with God. We would all be dead. The fact that we are alive is proof of God's love and His provision for our sins. The same question that people have to accuse God asking, "Why would God let this happen?" is the very proof of His indiscriminate love and provision for each and every one of us. Y'shua Himself, as prophesied, was cut off and taken away too because of our sin. Just keep in mind that there will be a resurrection and everyone will be judged at that time for what they did here on earth. Believe it!
There is no link to God without the work of God Himself by way of the blood of His Son Y'shua.
Shalom!
Hello Howie.
First I would like to apologize in the name of Y'shua for all the crimes done to your people in the past for ignorance on the part of the "Christians." Just because people claim Christianity, doesn't mean they aren't human and follow wrong ideas from time to time. The Bible does not teach to punish Jews for anything...nor for that matter anyone else.
That being said, I am convinced that Y'shua is the Son of God (God Himself), and this is what Y'shua spoke of. He did not condemn his disciples when they worshiped him (as Moses surely would have, and any other man of God) And Y'shua did not claim to become the leader of a new movement for God, but he claimed to be the Way to God. Either He was a liar, a lunatic, or Lord God Almighty, prophesied about within the entire Old Testament...not the makings of a great prophet by any means (what kind of great moral teacher would claim to be God?).
The reason Christians talk so much about how and why he died is because THAT is the essential element to our faith. To quote the apostle Paul, "Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied." (1 Corinthians 15:12-19)
Without the resurrection of Christ, we have no hope, and there would be no such thing as "Christianity." You say that the disciples made up stories to create a missionary journey to promote their ideas? Why would anyone ever do that? People do not die, especially in the horrible ways the disciples did, for what they know is a lie. After Jesus was crucified, 10 of his followers deserted him (imagine your best friends for 3 years, closer to you than your own family leaving you the way they did Jesus) because they thought He was done for. Even when the women witnesses (which were not even legal witnesses back then, so to make up the story and have women as the first witnesses trying to convince the men would be ridiculous) tried to convince Peter and the others that they had seen Him risen, the disciples thought they were out of their minds. These men were hiding, cowardly! ( and I probably would have done the same) Then, all of a sudden, they are boasting in the idea of a risen Jesus? Proclaiming it for all to hear, naming names of witnesses and putting their reputations and lives on the line? And Jesus also appeared to more than just them. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me." (1 Corinthians 3-8) Paul was saying, "Hey, these guys are still alive, for the most part. If you don't believe me, go ask them."
On top of this, "While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers and said, "Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.' And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day." (Matthew 28:11-15) Matthew was a Jew, so was Paul, James, John, the disciples, the 500 brothers, etc... Note how the chief priests had to account for a missing body. The body was missing! Where was it? If He had not risen, why would His disciples go on preaching with such joy, even to the point of torture? The most logical explanation is that He did rise, He is who He claimed to be, and He is the only Way that we can be right with God. The Ten Commandments cannot be kept by any of us, let alone the Levitical law. We break them, we need to repent, sacrifice, etc.. over and over again...the sin problem doesn't go away. With Jesus, His sacrifice was Himself, once and for all. Sin is covered for all who believe.
Also, if you don't believe in Christ you don't believe in God because you can't have one without the other. Many of us can witness that there is no other way to the Father. Jesus is the way - the only way!
If you really want to do God's will you'll find out that the teachings of Christ comes from God. Just ask yourself, have you received God's promise Holy Spirit? And if you haven't what are you waiting for. The promise if for you and all whom the Lord will call.
How sweet it is to be loved be the living God. There is nothing that comes close... Nothing!!!
Be honiest and you'll find Him. He loves you as you are but to much to leave you like that.
He is so good... He actually cares for us like a mother!
Wouldn't you like to hear His voice? To feel His presence? Well He's waiting... Call on Him and be blessed!!!
Oh the joy that you'll know when God moves in!
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door I will come in and fellowship with him. Those aren't just empty words - there fact!
Now all you have to do is open the door!
Jack Lavictoire
With all due respect, by quoting "John" and "Timothy" you are quoting the Jesus sales force that say "Jesus said this and Jesus said that" a 100 years after Jesus was gone. Then what the sales force said were translated and re-translated a 100 times or more. I don't need these quotes that were part of a sales pitch for me to believe in God himself. God put us on earth; we would not be here if it were not for him.
Did you ever play the game "Telephone" where you tell someone something; they then tell another who tells another and so on? By the time it goes through 5 or 10 people the whole message is changed. The so called "Gospels according to..." were written 70 -100 years after Jesus' death and then translated and printed dozens of times.
I am a true believer in God. I don't need intermediary or images of Saints etc. I don't pray via Moses, Abraham or David. I respect them all for their place in history and I respect Jesus the same way. I don't disrespect those that pray via Jesus if that is what they need to help them to believe in God. I see is as "just another way to pray". I am not trying to "unconvert" anyone. I am just stating why I don't need to be converted.
Hey Howie,
Does this same "pitch" apply to the Mishnah, which quotes Hillel almost 180 years after his death? Does it apply also when we cite others such as Simon ben Shetah of circa 80 C.E.? What are your ground rules as to "judging" what is traif or kosher in the historical dative methodology?
And if you have no respect to the Mishnah, name what ancient text you do trust, and why you can trust it and what it has to say about G-D over everything else. This is a religious forum. Because if the followers of Jesus made up stories, when were they first challenged as such and where are those manuscripts and how many are there? If you choose gnostic accounts like Judas, in 183 C.E., Irenaeus repudiates that one as a known heretical work of Valentinus (Against Heresies, 1.31.1; 1.30.15).
So if you can't trust the Gospel accounts (Luke written in Corinth in A.D. 50; Matthew in Jerusalem between May 55 to September 56; Mark in Rome in June - July 57; and John in Ephesus in August to October 57),
then how can you say that you trust that Jesus was anything that a story or myth says? Did Venus now come floating in to Turkey on a clam shell just because a story has it so? If the 10 commandments were given in 1551 B.C., why should we believe them more than the Gospels when for over a hundred years, the sons of Jacob lived without a written Torah copy to be read to them? I am very interested in your justifications and line of reasoning, as I have relatives who refuse to answer this, other than to say I am narrow minded. I know I am, and G-D tells us to be steinos, or ba, or natib...not derek or euruchoros.
Howie,
with all due respect, what sales force are you referring to? Is it the sales force that was crucified, fed to lions, stoned to death, or beheaded for their "sales pitches"? I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone who would ever go to their deaths in that manner for something they knew was not true. We have NO historical documents anywhere at any time from the period to rebuttle the testimonies of the eye witness accounts of the Gospel writers, and yes, any historian will tell you that the 4 Gospels are much more reliable from a purely historical standpoint than any other piece of information from the ancient world. All four Gospels are in fact believed by the majority of historians to be written by the actual authors. Matthew wrote Matthew, Mark wrote Mark (he was Peter's companion on trips to Asia Minor) Luke (a physician who accompanied Paul) was also a historian as well as a physician, and he wrote Luke and Acts, and John wrote John. These are well accepted by the majority of scholars and historians as to be written within 30 to 40 years after the the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is amazing when you compare these to other documents from the ancient world such as Homer's Illiad was written about 500 years after the events he is talking about took place. And also we only have one piece of information about Cleopatra and Antony, with no one in history disputing the accurate information recorded in these peices of literature. Yet, when THE MOST reliably accountable information about Jesus is handed down and passed on through out the entire world, we get people saying, "This can't be trusted," or "This is a made up story."
Jesus hits us in our gut with Truth. What will we do with Him? Accept him or reject him? Can't ignore him. He says, "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one will come to the Father, but by me." And, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Also, a quick note on the whole "telephone game" conspiracy: That is a fun little game in which the whole purpose is to see just how different the answer is going to be. It is not as fun if the last statement is close to the original statement. The difference is that the New Testament was written down because people were finally realizing that Jesus might not be coming back within their own lifetimes. It was well recognized that Paul and the early Christians all believed that Jesus would return in their time. In other words, the documents were written down to CONFIRM what was already widely recognized, not to create a belief system from written down documentations.
You know as well as I (or maybe not) that in that time, the majority of people were illiterate and the way history was passed down was orally. When someone actually took the time to write something down, they were taking a huge risk financially (as it was very expensive) and reputationally (the Gospels name actual, historical names that can be found in other sources outside of the Gospels- such as Josephus, Pliny the Young and others). If someone was to write about another man falsely, the man would dispute it and the people would not allow the author to achieve his purpose. They took that very seriously (which, incedently, is why the 'gnostic' gospels were written in the second and thrid centuries, claiming to be people who were with Jesus at his time on earth, but in actuality, not claiming any historical places or figures, besides the obvious) Take a look at Luke and Acts, just as an example. You will find numerous references to people, places, ports for ships, etc... which can also be cross referenced in outside sources beyond the Bible. Also, to help prove the timeline case (they were written well within the 30 to 40 year mark) you will see that none of the documents talk about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple, etc. They only quote Jesus predicting the destruction of the Temple. If Jerusalem had been destroyed by the time they wrote, don't you think they would have cited it? This happened in 70 AD. And also, in the Gospel of John (noted by most historians to be the latest of the 4) there are references to items that could have only been in tact before the destruction of the city.
All of these facts can lead you to the truth in Christ, but the most compelling argument is the one of the heart. Jesus loves you more than you can imagine. He shed his blood of his own volition. "No man takes my life, but I lay it down on my own accord."
Think for yourself, pray and ask the LORD to reveal the truth to you. I am confident the truth of Y'shua will be revealed to you.
Shalom and God bless you.
-Matt
HowieG, Isaiah's message reveals the Messiah and tells us He is God! You believe in God then believe in His Messiah.
He is the the Son of God. Isaiah 9:6 Luke 1:35
Isa:9:6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Lu:1:35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
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HERE THE MESSIAH REVEALS HIMSELF AS THE FIRST AND THE LAST!
Isa:48:12: Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isa:48:13: Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isa:48:14: All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
Isa:48:15: I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isa:48:16: Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Re:22:13: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
I hate to break it to you, but the generation that got the 10 commandments all died in the wilderness even Moses, only 2 guys of that generation entered the promised land and that by faith, Joshua and Caleb
>> I don't need a Messiah to believe in one G_d and to live by the 10 Commandments.
and what of the commands to love G-d with ALL your heart and ALL your soul and ALL thor mind and ALL your strength and to Love your neighbor as yourself. You always do those??
you never envy anyone or covent anything?
you never stretched the truth?
you always worship G-d with a heart of love to glorify Him?
you never do anything that dishonors G-d?
and why does the New Covenant in Jeremiah need to say "I will give them a heart to fear Me" after more than a thousand years of the 10 commandments?
Psalm 130:3
If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities,O Lord, who could stand?