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What Eve said

Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:


Gen 3:3  But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

What Satan said:

Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 2:16  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

what God said:

Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God gives a commandment to man i.e Kosher foods

man hears what he wants to hear i.e this is Kosher today not Kosher tomorrow or is Kosher if a b or c are followed and delete d

Satan whispers in man's ear but this is fine God won't mind
and man does the wrong thing 9 times out of 10.

Peter and Paul both stated that the dietarty laws were changed but that we were NOT to eat anything knowingly served to idols otherwise keep your peace and eat so as not to cause contraversy.

Shietl Queen has to keep to her dietary laws because until her eyes are opened to the Messiah she is under the whole law and all that it entails and will be judged according to the Law in the day of Judgement.
  That doesn't mean that we who know the Messiah won't be judged more severly than her for whom to much is given much is required.

Kosher/not Kosher each man /woman according to his/her own convictions  

Here's an honest question for you, Prophet. Messianic sites I
have visited absolutely insist that messianics must keep
kosher ( some "bibilicaly", others "rabbinicaly") and say that
for Jesus to have been moshiach he must have kept Torah
and therefore kept kosher. And that Peter/Paul did not say
the dietary laws were no longer in effect. ( Not being
knowledgable of the NT I can't step into that debate).
How can two divergent opinions- one saying messianics
absolutely must keep kosher, one saying you don't need
to- get derived from the NT?
Thanks in advance,
Chava

Peter said:
Act 11:6  Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 11:7  And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
Act 11:8  But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
Act 11:9  But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common

Peter said:
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication

paul said:
1Cr 8:6  But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
1Cr 8:7  Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Cr 8:8  But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Cr 8:9  But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Cr 8:10  For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Cr 8:11  And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

1Cr 10:27  If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
1Cr 10:28  But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
1Cr 10:29  Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
1Cr 10:30  For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
1Cr 10:31  Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Cr 10:32  Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Jesus was of thetribe of Judah son of David from the root of Jesse he fulfilled all prophecy concerning the suffering Messiah and he was as kosher as any other jewish man as were Peter and Paul
  Paul said basically that every man was to eat according to his conscience but if with a Jew to eat kosher if with a gentile to eat whatever was given to you giving thanks in both cases to God so as not to give offence since the primary job of every believer in Christ is to win souls and to be as wise as serpents but gentle as doves.
   You should read the NT if not as God's word then to obtain knowledge of other points of view majority of Messianics are well veersed in both the Talmud and the NT. Knowledge never hurt anyone after all God said it himself :
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:

Hope this helps
Prophet  

  



Thanks for the response and apologies for my slow response...
are you saying that it is more important to win converts
than it is to follow the Torah? If I am reading your response
correctly, you are saying that what we eat (koser or traif)
should be dependent on the reactions of other men, and not
in observance of Torah? If so, that bothers me greatly...that we
would base our observance on man rather than G-d.....or
do I misunderstand what you wrote?
thanks,
Chava

Chava...
    You follow the Law and the Law dictates what is Kosher and what is traif.  However under grace God has told us that everything we eat comes out in the draught and that nothing God sanctifies is trief.
    We are to win souls for the Kingdom of God so as long as we bless what we eat there is nothing we can't eat(except that which we know has been offered to idols)
     hope this clears up any misunderstanding    

Let's look at actual account in Acts 10:

9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw Heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air.


13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

God told Peter to kill and eat one of the animals in the sheet.  
The sheet contained all kinds of animals,  clean and unclean.  
So why didn't Peter eat one of the clean animals?

What is the difference between unclean and common?
Ruth


15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has made clean, you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

Here is that word "common" again.  And we can see it doesn't mean clean.  
So even if there were all kinds of animals in the sheet; sheep and deer and goats and cattle, Peter apparently was calling them "common" not clean.  

"Common" means ritually unclean.  Pigs and rats and cats and shrimp are all unclean.  they can never be clean.  Sheep and goats and cattle and chicken are clean  but  they can become "common", ritually unclean.  An example might be that you find a dead chicken along the side of the road.  Even though ckickens are clean and can be eaten, this chicken died of unknown cause and time.  It is no longer clean.  It has become ritually unclean. You must not eat it.  

Peter thhought that the clean animals in the sheet had become ritually unclean.  Because they were in the same sheet as some unclean animals.  God never said such a thing.  It is perfectly fine to eat a sheep that is herded by a sheep dog.  You can never eat the dog though.  

In the same way, Peter had the idea that believing gentiles were ritually unclean and so you could not go into their homes.  

And that was the primary reason God gave Peter this vision.  And Peter understood it when he was asked to go to Cornelius, a believing gentile's home.  

Now reread Acts 11
1 Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. 2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him, 3 saying, “You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them!”
4 But Peter explained it to them in order from the beginning, saying: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
Ruth

Thanks for the clarification...in your original post I understood you
to be saying that winning converts is more important than anything
else-including following Torah. It was seeming to say that you
can break any mitzvot in order to convert someone, and that
bothered me greatly. Thanks for presenting the understanding
you have of what one may eat or not eat...but a further question.
Say one did directly break a commandment that one believes
is valid to win a convert. This would be allowed? Converts at
any cost?
Still trying to figure all this out...
Chava

This is about the Acts 15 decision by the Jerusalem Council (apostles, elders including James as head).  It took place about 12-16 years after
the resurrection.  

Notice that this notice went just to gentile new believers.  It did not go to Jewish believers.  Therefore the Mosaic Covenant Law was still in effect,  at least for Jews.  For this issue to come up this late, absolutely proves that the MC Law did not stop at the time of the death, resurrection or ascension of Yeshua.  

The MC Law is a singular group of Laws of God.  It stands as a whole.  
It never passes away when the people are scattered.  The Laws that can only be done in Israel, are reestablished upon return to the land.  (Deut.30. 1-8)

Now as regards the gentile believers.  

If you look at the 4 Laws given by the Jer.Council, you will see that it does not include the greatest Commandment, according to Yeshua, to Love God (Deut.6:5).  It does not include the 2nd greatest Commandment to love your neighbor (Lev.19:18).  
It doesn't include the 10 Commandments either.  

So anyone who says that gentiles were commanded only to obey these four Laws and none other, has some explaining to do.  

However, verse 21 in Acts 15 shows why these 4 were chosen.  They were simply to make sure the gentiles, just out of paganism, were not continuing in the pagan worship and could come into the synogogues on the Sabbath and learn of the Law given to Moses for Jew and believing gentile. (Numbers 15:30-31).  
Ruth

[quote]


I disagree that the primary job of a believer is to win souls.  
It is to love God.

The gentiles were, however,  given a mandate to make the Jews jealous for their Messiah.  (Romans 11:11)  
But that cannot be done by disregarding the Law of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  

Yeshua said not one jot or tittle of the MC Law passes away until Heaven and earth pass away and ALL comes to be.  (Matthew 5:18)
He also told John in Revelation 2:14 and 20 that He was  against the congregations that allowed food sacrificed to idols to be eaten.  

Paul did not say that praying with meals made any food acceptable to be eaten.  he said, "Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from foods which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.  For every creation of God [is] good, and nothing to be rejected, if it be received with thanksgiving for it is Sanctified by the Word of God and prayer".  (1Timothy 4)

God has not Sanctified pork in His Word.  He calls it "disgusting".  

Ruth

Ruth,
What's disgusting is your Judaizing, not Judaism. You need to read Acts 15, Romans 3, and Romans 14.