| Hebrew Catholics |
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katolyk
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Posts: 66
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Hebrew Catholics
Hello everyone,
I'm not sure if this'll be popular considering that Jews for Jesus is an "evangelical" protestant group, but has anyone here every heard of the Assosociation of Hebrew Catholics? If so what do you guys think of them? I mean - their goal is pretty similar in that (I'd presume) most of the members come from a Jewish background. They even have a pdf document with the Rosary in Hebrew - which if you are not familiar with is a repetitive catholic prayer mainly consisting of Hail Marys (or Angelic Salutations) and Our Fathers. It is used to meditate on mysteries - such as that of Christ's Passion.
Katolyk - ÷àèàìé÷
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| 09-18-2007 04:01 PM |
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YIHM
Junior Member
Posts: 42
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RE: Hebrew Catholics
which if you are not familiar with is a repetitive catholic prayer mainly consisting of Hail Marys (or Angelic Salutations) and Our Fathers.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
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| 09-19-2007 12:30 AM |
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DavidJ
Senior Member
Posts: 637
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| 09-19-2007 06:00 AM |
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prophet
I Should Get A Medal for So Much Posting!
Posts: 1,429
Group: Registered
Joined: Jan 2007
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RE: Hebrew Catholics
Hello everyone,
I'm not sure if this'll be popular considering that Jews for Jesus is an "evangelical" protestant group, but has anyone here every heard of the Assosociation of Hebrew Catholics? If so what do you guys think of them? I mean - their goal is pretty similar in that (I'd presume) most of the members come from a Jewish background. They even have a pdf document with the Rosary in Hebrew - which if you are not familiar with is a repetitive catholic prayer mainly consisting of Hail Marys (or Angelic Salutations) and Our Fathers. It is used to meditate on mysteries - such as that of Christ's Passion.
Katolyk - ºàèàìéº
We are commanded to come out of her or suffer her plagues for the RCC is the Whore of Babylon
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
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| 09-19-2007 06:30 AM |
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katolyk
Member
Posts: 66
Group: Registered
Joined: Sep 2007
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RE: Hebrew Catholics
which if you are not familiar with is a repetitive catholic prayer mainly consisting of Hail Marys (or Angelic Salutations) and Our Fathers.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
In the Douai-Rheims Bible the Matthew 6:7 reads "And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard." In any case, I think you would be taking it out of context to claim that the rosary is wrong simply, because of its repetitive nature.
As the Haydock Commentary says - "Ver. 7. Long prayer is not here forbidden; for Christ himself spent whole nights in prayer: and he sayeth, we must pray always; and the apostle, that we must pray without intermission, 1 Thessalonians v.; and the holy Church hath had from the beginning her canonical hours for prayer, but rhetorical and elaborate prayer, as if we thought to persuade God by our eloquence, is forbidden; the collects of the Church are most brief and most effectual. (St. Augustine, ep. 121. chap. viii, ix, x.) (Bristow) --- Perseverance in prayer is recommended us by the example of the poor widow, who by her importunity prevailed over the unjust judge. (St. Chrysostom, hom. xix.) --- The Greek word means, to babble or trifle."
Also I would like to point out that Christ "went again: and prayed the third time, saying the selfsame words." (Mt 26:44) before his passion.
Katolyk - ÷àèàìé÷
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| 09-19-2007 07:40 AM |
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katolyk
Member
Posts: 66
Group: Registered
Joined: Sep 2007
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RE: Hebrew Catholics
Hello everyone,
I'm not sure if this'll be popular considering that Jews for Jesus is an "evangelical" protestant group, but has anyone here every heard of the Assosociation of Hebrew Catholics? If so what do you guys think of them? I mean - their goal is pretty similar in that (I'd presume) most of the members come from a Jewish background. They even have a pdf document with the Rosary in Hebrew - which if you are not familiar with is a repetitive catholic prayer mainly consisting of Hail Marys (or Angelic Salutations) and Our Fathers. It is used to meditate on mysteries - such as that of Christ's Passion.
Katolyk - ºàèàìéº
We are commanded to come out of her or suffer her plagues for the RCC is the Whore of Babylon
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
 People who think the Catholic Church to be the Whore of Babylon are extremely mislead. It really is that simple. The whole Whore of Babylon argument was basically made up by disgruntled protestants - after all you don't see evangelicals calling the Orthodox Church, or any other Church with apostolic succession (e.g. Coptic Church?) the "Whore of Babylon".
I find it particularly amusing that protestants use the verse - "3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:" (Rev 12:2) In reference to the catholic Church, because if you proceed a bit further you find the words "7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels:".
It really makes you wonder why the Whore of Babylon would compose a prayer to Saint Michael.
"Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen"
And that she would encourage the praying of this prayer through attaching an indulgence to it.
It is also pretty peculiar that before 1962 when the Tridentine Mass was more common after the last Gospel (i.e. the beginning of the Gospel of Saint John) the same prayer was prayed as part of the Leonine prayers.
It kind of makes me wonder, how a religion that has a Trinitarian baptism, says the Nicene Creed at every Mass, says the Apostles Creed, Prayers the Our Father at every Mass, has countless prayers invoking St. Michael, et alia could be possessed by Satan. I mean - a religion that has exorcisms as well... It kind of reminds me of Christs words, "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand?" (Mt 12:26)
Katolyk
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| 09-19-2007 10:42 AM |
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katolyk
Member
Posts: 66
Group: Registered
Joined: Sep 2007
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RE: Hebrew Catholics
...what do you guys think of them?
Sadly, they are decieved; we should be ernestly praying for their eyes to opened to the Truth. See 'Are Roman Catholics Christians? at
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp
DavidJ
Sadly people who think Jack Chick is the authority are deceived. He basically restates common protestant arguments, all of which have been proved false by the way, and adds a good mixture of hate as well.
I entreat you to read Saint Francis de Sales' the Catholic Controversy before posting such nonesense again. WARNING: these pamphlets have been known to spontaneously convert ardent protestants - 72,000 Calvinists converted back to the Catholic Church.
Catholig
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| 09-19-2007 10:49 AM |
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DavidJ
Senior Member
Posts: 637
Group: Registered
Joined: Mar 2007
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RE: Hebrew Catholics
I think you would be taking it out of context to claim that the rosary is wrong simply, because of its repetitive nature.
Much of what the prayer of the rosary contains is scriptural but the whole second half of the “Hail Mary” and portions of the “Hail, Holy Queen” are blatantly unbiblical.
The first part of the Hail Mary is almost a direct quotation from Luke 1:28 however, there is no scriptural basis for (1) praying to Mary now, (2) addressing her as “holy” Mary, or (3) calling her “our life” and “our hope.”
It is very wrong to call Mary “holy,” in the context of Roman Catholic Church dogma which states Mary never sinned nor had any taint of original sin. Believers in the Bible were called “saints” which can be interpreted as “set apart ones” or “holy ones,” but the understanding of Scripture is that the righteousness that believers in Christ have is an imparted righteousness from Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21) and that while in this life, they are not yet sanctified from sin in practice (1 John 1:9-2:1). Jesus is called our Saviour repeatedly in Scripture because He saved us from our sin. In Luke 1:47, Mary calls God her “Saviour.” Saviour from what? A sinless person does not need a Saviour. Sinner’s need a Saviour. Mary acknowledged that God was her Saviour. Therefore, Mary was acknowledging that she was a sinner.
Jesus said that He came to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). The Roman Catholic Church claims that Mary was saved from sin differently than everyone else...that she was saved from sin through the immaculate conception (her being conceived free of sin). But this teaching is not scriptural. The Roman Catholic church openly admits that this teaching is not found in Scripture. When the young man addressed Jesus as “good Master” in Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus asks why he calls Him “good” since there is none good but one; God. Jesus was not denying His own deity, He was making the young man aware that he was using the term too loosely without thinking about what he was saying. Jesus’ point is still valid or He would not have said it...there is none good but God. This excludes all but God, including Mary! This ties in with Romans 3:10-23, Romans 5:12, and countless other passages that stress the fact that in God’s eyes no one measures up. Never is Mary ever excluded from such all encompassing statements! If Mary had been preserved from the stain of sin, she would not have needed a Saviour, as she proclaimed that she did in Luke 1:47.
What of the question of praying to Mary or to anyone else besides God? We are never told in the Bible whether anyone else in heaven can even hear us. We do know that God alone is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. Even the angels, with whatever great abilities they may have, seem to have their limitations and can’t always make it to help us as they might like (Daniel 10:10-14). When Jesus taught his disciples to pray, He gave them what is commonly called the “Our, Father.” He teaches us to address our prayer to God. Whenever prayer is addressed to anyone, it is done to God! Never can you find a single example of someone praying a prayer to any “saint” or angel or anyone else (besides prayers to false gods). Further, any time that any pious person prostrates himself (in a religious setting) to honour someone else besides God (e.g. to the apostles or angels), they are told to get up, to stop it (Acts 10:25-26; Acts 14:13-16; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 19:10; Revelation 22:8-9). The Roman Catholic Church states that it worships God alone but that they “venerate” Mary and the saints. What is the difference? A person praying the rosary spends more time calling out to Mary than to God! For every one praise of God in the Rosary, there are 10 praises of Mary!
The Bible states that Jesus is our redeemer (Galatians 3:13; 4:4-5; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:18-19; Revelation 5:9). The “Hail, Holy Queen” calls Mary our “most gracious advocate,” but the Bible calls Jesus our Advocate to the Father (1 John 2:1) and our one Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5). The only time in Scripture that the title “Queen of Heaven” is found it is in a negative way in Jeremiah 7:17-19; 44:16-27. The whole of Scripture teaches us to pray to God alone. Never once can you find an example or admonition to pray to anyone else! The only basis for the idea of getting to God through Mary is based on the biblical story of Mary coming to Jesus to ask for his help at a wedding feast (John 2). But in light of all of the other verses, including Jesus’ own instruction on how we are to pray, is taking this passage completely out of context and must never be used to teach that we ought to continue to go through Mary to get to God!
Likewise, it is inappropriate to call Mary our “life” and “hope!” Again, these are terms that are used of God alone in Scripture, particularly God the Son, Jesus Christ (John 1:1-14; Colossians 3:4; 1 Timothy 1:1; Ephesians 2:12; Titus 2:13). Thus, the practice of repeating the rosary goes contrary to Scripture in a number of ways. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. The Bible nowhere instructs Christians to pray through intermediaries, or to petition saints or Mary (in Heaven) for their prayers.
DavidJ
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| 09-19-2007 05:32 PM |
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DavidJ
Senior Member
Posts: 637
Group: Registered
Joined: Mar 2007
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RE: Hebrew Catholics
Sadly people who think Jack Chick is the authority are deceived
I agree! But you see born again Bible Believing Christians KNOW that neither Jack Chick, Saint Francis de Sales' or even the Pope is the 'authority'. The authority is The Bible and Jack Chick supports everything he says and quotes on Scripture where it applies.
DavidJ
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| 09-20-2007 12:33 AM |
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YIHM
Junior Member
Posts: 42
Group: Registered
Joined: Sep 2007
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RE: Hebrew Catholics
It really makes you wonder why the Whore of Babylon would compose a prayer to Saint Michael.
"Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen"
Where does Scripture tell us to pray to angels and dead people? I see where Saul was without YHWH so he went and invoked Samuel from the dead and I see in Col. 2 where worship of angels and other ascetic practices not commanded in Scriptures( (fasting/lent, abstaining from marriage/priests)that Catholicism practices are spoken against...
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
And that she would encourage the praying of this prayer through attaching an indulgence to it.
What is your definition of indulgences? Do the Scriptures speak of giving alms and saying seven hail mary's as a means for forgiveness?
It is also pretty peculiar that before 1962 when the Tridentine Mass was more common after the last Gospel (i.e. the beginning of the Gospel of Saint John) the same prayer was prayed as part of the Leonine prayers.
Again where are we instructed in Scriptures to pray to angels and dead people?
It kind of makes me wonder, how a religion that has a Trinitarian baptism, says the Nicene Creed at every Mass, says the Apostles Creed, Prayers the Our Father at every Mass, has countless prayers invoking St. Michael, et alia could be possessed by Satan. I mean - a religion that has exorcisms as well... It kind of reminds me of Christs words, "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand?" (Mt 12:26)
What do you think this passage means...
Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity(lawlessnes).
Doesn't this indicate that there are those who prophesy, cast out devils, and do many wonderful works in His Name who are cast away from Him b/c they practice Lawlessness(things like idol worship)? Also, Yahushua said that deceptive men will say the He(Yahushua) is the Christ...
Mat 24:4 And Yahushua answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in My Name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
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| 09-20-2007 01:27 AM |
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