Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Post Trib Stumper
#1
Does your post trib rapture occur moments before the Lord's feet touches down on mount olivet to fight armageddon?
Or does your post trib rapture occur after armageddon, after the false prophet and antichrist are cast alive into the lake of fire?

#2

I don't have a rapture planned but Jesus has one planned for the "last trump".


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Matthew 24:29-31



The 7th trumpet is the last trump


And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Revelation 11:7-17  
#3
In Rev. 15:1, the “bowl judgments” are “the seven last plagues”, after the other plagues. The trumpets are also called plagues in Rev. 9:20. The “seven last plagues” must happen after the other plagues.The 7th Trumpet is a judgement Trumpet and not a hoorah trumpet.
This Trumpet occurs between the second and the third "woe"
The third woe,..is satan being cast out of heaven,..and at that time,..he is no longer the prince of the air.

15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,

and he will reign for ever and ever.”

have become
ἐγένετο [egeneto] , singular, prophetic aorist. The event is so certain in the sounding of the seventh angel that it is treated as if already past. However, the kingdom will not have arrived in totality until all seven bowl judgments are poured forth (Rev. 16:17+) and the King Himself returns to earth to defeat the armies of the nations (Isa. 63:1-6; Zec. 12:1-9; 14:1-8; Rev. 19:11-21+).

Continued:
#4
In both the Old and New Testaments, the word elect means chosen. In Old testament times, the elect were God’s Chosen people, the Jews (Isaiah 45:4). During this age the Church is God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1), and after the Church is gone Tribulation believers will be His elect. (Matt. 24:22) In the Millennium, Israel will once again be called God’s elect (Isaiah 65:22)
The Angelic Gathering
To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines, the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:


The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had to say about the second facet of Israel' s final restoration. Its purpose was to make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be fulfilled only after the second coming.


Continued:
#5
Dr. Renald Showers has done an excellent job collecting evidence and arguing for this view.[16] After noting that " from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" means that " the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ' s coming," [17] Dr. Showers provides three lines of proof for his view as follows:


First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.

Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vv. 10, 20).

. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .

Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day " a great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)" and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, " There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion."

It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a " great" trumpet.

Continued:
#6
Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an " ensign" (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel " from the four corners of the earth." [18]


What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.


Conclusion
It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31 cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for the Millennium. At Christ' s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His desire to gather Israel to Himself " the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling" (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39). Maranatha!

#7

That's man's opinions.

I'll stick with what the scriptures clearly state and not twist them to fit any particular doctrine or dogma.

#8
Does your post trib rapture occur moments before the Lord's feet touches down on mount olivet to fight armageddon?
Or does your post trib rapture occur after armageddon, after the false prophet and antichrist are cast alive into the lake of fire?


I almost forgot that you did not answer my question.
From past experiances,..I have found that 99% of those who hold a post trib view will not "Directly" attempt to answer the above question,..but some will try to answer it in a round about way,..but never really answering the question.....I do understand why this is so.
#9

I already answered the same basic question on the thread I started "The Last Trump."
#10
Hope Wrote:That's man's opinions.

I'll stick with what the scriptures clearly state and not twist them to fit any particular doctrine or dogma.
Allow me to ask you a question by posting a scripture.

Luke 12;36
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

The Lord is revealed here as returning to the earth as a married man....who did He marry before He returned?


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)