| Righteousness comes from following Torah. |
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Chaim ben Yaakov
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Righteousness comes from following Torah.
Paul wrote the following "gem":
"If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." — Gal. 2:21
Ezek. 33:10-20 shows that while in exile, righteousness comes from following the law (and ONLY from this obedience - see 33:11) and that this alone wipes the slate clean as God no longer remembers our sins (33:16 and our souls are saved (Ezek 18:27).
Psa 44 shows a righteous remnant in exile, following Torah, without sacrifice or belief in Jesus. They're righteous by "the law".
Deut 6:25, Ezek 18:9, and Psa 103:17-18 show explicitly that following Torah makes one righteous.
As opposed to Paul's lie that Abraham was righteous by faith alone - either reckoned or accounted as righteousness - the very same thing is said of Phinehas, proving faith is NOT the only way one can be reckoned or accounted righteous:
“Then Phineas stood up and interposed; and so the plague was stopped. And it was reckoned to him for righteousness to all generations forever.” (Psalm 106:30-31)
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| 11-07-2006 08:23 PM |
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BornAgain
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RE: Righteousness comes from following Torah.
Paul wrote the following "gem":
"If righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." — Gal. 2:21
Ezek. 33:10-20 shows that while in exile, righteousness comes from following the law (and ONLY from this obedience - see 33:11) and that this alone wipes the slate clean as God no longer remembers our sins (33:16 and our souls are saved (Ezek 18:27).
Psa 44 shows a righteous remnant in exile, following Torah, without sacrifice or belief in Jesus. They're righteous by "the law".
Deut 6:25, Ezek 18:9, and Psa 103:17-18 show explicitly that following Torah makes one righteous.
As opposed to Paul's lie that Abraham was righteous by faith alone - either reckoned or accounted as righteousness - the very same thing is said of Phinehas, proving faith is NOT the only way one can be reckoned or accounted righteous:
“Then Phineas stood up and interposed; and so the plague was stopped. And it was reckoned to him for righteousness to all generations forever.” (Psalm 106:30-31)
Christ is not dead in vain because righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ who was the only person able to keep the law perfectly. He is the only person who was ever able to keep the law in it's entirety because He is God. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Christ's righteousness gets imputed to people who believe in Him.
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| 11-09-2006 02:16 AM |
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Brianroy
Jesus Christ is YHVeH, King of the Jews
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RE: Righteousness
Chaim,
Be careful not to sin against Father Abraham. To say Abraham is subject to Moses is to dishonor the commands to honor thy father, to not make light of thy parent, and to not steal.
entry 06/03/07:
Ezekiel 21
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
5 That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.
13 Because it is a Trial / Tribulation, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: [cf. as a clarifier of Jermiah 22:29] and it shall be no more, until He come whose right it is; and I will give it him. [cf. Genesis 49:10]
Ezekiel 22
2 Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge [Jerusalem, cf. Zephaniah]the bloody city? yea, thou shalt shew her all her abominations.
3 Then say thou, Thus saith the Lord GOD, The city sheddeth blood in the midst of it, that her time may come, and maketh idols against herself to defile herself.
4 Thou art become guilty in thy blood that thou hast shed; and hast defiled thyself in thine idols which thou hast made; and thou hast caused thy days to draw near, and art come even unto thy years: therefore have I made thee a reproach unto the heathen, and a mocking to all countries.
5 Those that be near, and those that be far from thee, shall mock thee, which art infamous and much vexed.
6 Behold, the princes [read as those who are a Nasi or of the Lesser and Great Sanhedrins in regard to 23 -70 A.D.] of Israel, every one were in thee to their power to shed blood.
7 In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow. [cf. with the Gospel accounts and the histories of Josephus].
8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.
9 In thee are men that carry tales to shed blood: and in thee they eat upon the mountains: in the midst of thee they commit lewdness.
10 In thee have they discovered their fathers' nakedness: in thee have they humbled her that was set apart for pollution.
11 And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter.
12 In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord GOD.
15 And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee.
16 And thou shalt take thine inheritance in thyself in the sight of the heathen, and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.
25 There is a conspiracy of her [false] prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
26 Her priests have violated my Law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.
31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Fulfilling Psalm 2 and Psalm 110:1 in 66 - 70 A.D., because they (the ruling Sanhedrins and leaders over Israel) would not recognize Messhiach, the Voice of the L-RD, of Psalm 29 (in A.D. 30).
This post was last modified: 06-04-2007 03:05 PM by Brianroy.
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| 11-09-2006 04:05 AM |
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Brianroy
Jesus Christ is YHVeH, King of the Jews
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RE: Righteousness
In the Tenach, we have two types of Righteousness to the individual:
1) Outer righteousness which blesses by "benefits" of a position, which is the example of Phineas and the other examples you seem to stress; and,
2) Inner Righteousness, which redeems unto salvation, placing one in a deliverance from the second death (isa. 66:24) and into the second life (Psalm 23:6).
The goal of the son of Adam, the son of Noah, -- to which we all are -- is to be back into a place to a proper behavior as a son of G-D, behaving as even the proper angels.
If were are translated from Earth to Heaven right now...how and in what manner or way will we be expected to live and interact? Time is removed, and night has forever ceased...what is or is not -- now -- the intent of Shabbat? Angels "work" by recording words, interceding as G-D directs them, and a host of other things we know not what. There must be a special behavior in which we express an outer AND inner righteousness before G-D. Torah was meant to teach from the outside - in, to those who were in bitter bondage, with bitter hearts and bitter minds, -- mercy and goodness.
In Romans 11:22, Paul tells us to pursue this Inner Righteousness, which is greater than the Outer Righteousness (encompassing severity). After all, Phineas thrust that spear through two fornicators in the very act, in order that all Israel might be spared. Thousands died, and the only way to stop more from dying is by a severe act of killing the offending party which Israel had let sin openly by benign neglect or cowardice.
The word Paul uses is Chrestotata in the Greek, from which the name "Chrest" was designated to Messiah by Roman historians, and his followers called as "Chrestians". Chrestotes is an inner righteousness of "kindness, graciousness, gentleness, of being mellow". In Heaven, this type of inside to outside righteousness is what we expect of the angels, who are also called "sons of G-D". Israel is expected also to measure up to being "bene Elohim." But how many do we really know who walk and behave in this manner? Perhaps handfuls.
Messiah says that out of the heart (innermost being, spirit) proceeds all manner of murder, adulteries, etc. In Heaven, this is the righteousness that matters most -- and then, by natural continuance, outer righteousness follows in acts of continual mercy. Surely goodness (inner righteousness) and mercy (outward following through of that "Christ" righteousness) shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the House of HASHEM forever.
Shalom.
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| 11-09-2006 06:12 AM |
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Chaim ben Yaakov
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RE: Righteousness comes from following Torah.
Just reporting what the hebrew scriptures teach, and it's quite clear they teach that the following of Torah makes one righteous. This shows that in Gal. 2:21, Jesus died in vain since Jews can attain righteousness, even the imputed kind from God (see Psa 103:17-18) through the following of God's commandments.
Gen. 18 doesn't teach at all that righteousness comes only by faith and the example from Psa 106:30-31 proves how dishonest Paul's argument is. Gen. 18:19, 22:18, and 26:4-5 show why Abraham was chosen. And the scriptures cited in my 1st post on this thread prove righteousness comes from the keeping of the law.
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| 11-09-2006 02:16 PM |
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BornAgain
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RE: Righteousness comes from following Torah.
What the law requires is humanly impossible because we're all born with a sin nature because of Adam's sin in the garden of Eden. Because he sinned, all of his descendants (everyone on earth) was subsequently conceived in sin. We have a sin nature beyond our control. Therefore, we cannot save ourselves no matter how righteous we try to become. However, Jesus was not born with a sin nature because He was the only begotten Son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, He was born sinless and He remained sinless while He walked this earth.
What God requires, as far as righteousness, is complete perfection. Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Read Matthew 5:17-48 to get more insight into what's required (perfection), inside and out, for an entire lifetime. You, nor anyone can achieve this kind of perfection, especially given the fact that we were all conceived in sin.
However, Christ was able to achieve this perfection.
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
(Romans 3:19-26)
This is not self-righteousness, like you're saying we need to have.
"Abraham and the prophets understood this - that Jesus is our Righteousness (not self-righteousness). Jesus said "Abraham saw My day and was glad."
Also, as was quoted above, "but now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify." That righteousness is Jesus Christ.
The righteousness you asked me to read in Deuteronomy 6:25, Psalms 103:17-18, and Ezekiel 18:9 is God's Righteousness - a righteousness that He imputes to us when we come to Jesus Christ. This is very much different from trying to keep a lot of laws on our on strength. It is not
self-righteousness, but God's provision for our sins, which is Jesus Christ. The wicked are those people who refuse Jesus Christ's sacrifice and they're the ones who are considered to be unrighteous (or self-righteous).
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| 11-17-2006 07:43 AM |
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BornAgain
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RE: Righteousness comes from following Torah.
Many of the patriachs and prophets understood that righteousness was from God and not our self-righteousness. If we were to be considered righteous, according to the law, then where would Moses be after he killed the Egyptian? Where would David be after he sinned with Bathsheba and plotted to kill Urriah? Where would many of the patriachs and prophets be after they sinned? Many times Israel sinned like the nations around them and even worse than the nations around them. What's going to happen to all of them? My point is no one could completely and perfectly follow the letter of the law. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin permanently. The blood of Jesus Christ, however, can and does. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering." (Romans 8:1-3)
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| 11-17-2006 07:44 AM |
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david
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RE: Righteousness comes from following Torah.
Just reporting what the hebrew scriptures teach, and it's quite clear they teach that the following of Torah makes one righteous.
you reported what was written by hebrew paul who said the opposite of what you are saying. he said that if righteousness came by keeping the law, then jesus death was a waste. that he is saying and that opposite you!! this im told you on the other post. if right came by law, then why do we need salvation by messiah? and if the old scripture are full as you say telling us that we can OBTAIN righteousness by the law, then why didnt someone tell god so he wouldnt have to make the messiah commitment?
This shows that in Gal. 2:21, Jesus died in vain since Jews can attain righteousness, even the imputed kind from God (see Psa 103:17-18) through the following of God's commandments.
Gen. 18 doesn't teach at all that righteousness comes only by faith i cannot disagree with you on this. we are together with this because righteousness cannot come by faith alone. this is martin luther error.
and the example from Psa 106:30-31 proves how dishonest Paul's argument is. paul dishonest? i doubt serious that a man who once persecuted jews like a roman with a mission, would give up his pride and reverse to save them and then tell a lie to do it???
Gen. 18:19, 22:18, and 26:4-5 show why Abraham was chosen. And the scriptures cited in my 1st post on this thread prove righteousness comes from the keeping of the law.
abraham kept the law? from where did he get it?
you established in your thinking, a single and specific interpretation of what righteousness is and you using to encompass all scripture. you are mr. confused i think, and dont know it, excuse me. again, there is a type of righteousness in keeping the law but no man is righteous....no not even one.
let me try this....
if i gave you a five stage set of contest rules, and you so far got it all right up to stage three, i might say that you are righteous as opposed to the other people who got it wrong at stage two. , but until you complete all five stage correct, and get your card stamped by the judge, you will not be righteous IN ALL
http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/3975/truth.htm
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| 11-17-2006 07:36 PM |
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Chaim ben Yaakov
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RE: Righteousness comes from following Torah.
What God requires, as far as righteousness, is complete perfection. Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Read Matthew 5:17-48 to get more insight into what's required (perfection), inside and out, for an entire lifetime. You, nor anyone can achieve this kind of perfection, especially given the fact that we were all conceived in sin.
The righteousness you asked me to read in Deuteronomy 6:25, Psalms 103:17-18, and Ezekiel 18:9 is God's Righteousness - a righteousness that He imputes to us when we come to Jesus Christ. This is very much different from trying to keep a lot of laws on our on strength. It is not
self-righteousness, but God's provision for our sins, which is Jesus Christ. The wicked are those people who refuse Jesus Christ's sacrifice and they're the ones who are considered to be unrighteous (or self-righteous).
1. Please show me where the Hebrew bible or Torah teaches sinless perfection is required.
2. Deut 6:25, Psa 103:17-18, and Ezek 18:9 states clearly this righteousness comes from the following of His commandments. There is no Jesus anywhere in these verses.
3. You say it's wicked to refuse Jesus. What is so immoral about refusing to believe in Jesus given we have good reason to believe the trinity is idolatry, the laws are eternal, and the church's abysmal history vs. Jews? What's wicked about this?
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| 11-19-2006 08:47 PM |
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Chaim ben Yaakov
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RE: Righteousness comes from following Torah.
you reported what was written by hebrew paul who said the opposite of what you are saying. he said that if righteousness came by keeping the law, then jesus death was a waste. that he is saying and that opposite you!! this im told you on the other post. if right came by law, then why do we need salvation by messiah? and if the old scripture are full as you say telling us that we can OBTAIN righteousness by the law, then why didnt someone tell god so he wouldnt have to make the messiah commitment?
Who says we need salvation by the Messiah, in the sense you believe - that we need him to save us from our sins? The hebrew bible doesn't teach that at all. Deut 6:25, Psa 103:17-18, and Ezek 18:9 prove you're wrong. Righteousness does come from the keeping of the commandments.
paul dishonest? i doubt serious that a man who once persecuted jews like a roman with a mission, would give up his pride and reverse to save them and then tell a lie to do it???
Of course Paul lied, many times. So say the earliest Jews who followed Jesus - like the Ebionites. Acts 21 shows Peter and James didn't trust Paul either, otherwise they would have accepted him as a true apostle and wouldn't have questioned him about telling Jews the law was no longer required to be kept. They humiliated him by forcing him to partake in a Nazirite SIN-sacrifice and this totally repudiated all Paul taught, as this showed Jesus was not the final sacrifice and the law was still eternal despite Jesus' death.
abraham kept the law? from where did he get it?
you established in your thinking, a single and specific interpretation of what righteousness is and you using to encompass all scripture. you are mr. confused i think, and dont know it, excuse me. again, there is a type of righteousness in keeping the law but no man is righteous....no not even one.
let me try this....
if i gave you a five stage set of contest rules, and you so far got it all right up to stage three, i might say that you are righteous as opposed to the other people who got it wrong at stage two. , but until you complete all five stage correct, and get your card stamped by the judge, you will not be righteous IN ALL
1. Genesis 26:5 shows Abraham obeyed all God's commandments given to him (somehow, someway) by God.
2. Show me where the hebrew bible distinguishes between 2 kinds of righteousness and therefore prove to me 1 type of righteousness is inferior to another.
3. And of course man can be righteous. You say none are righteous and the hebrew bible flat out repudiates your view. I wrote this earlier to Jennifer. If you have true faith in scripture, you should take God at His word.
Scripture totally repudiates your view that there are none who are righteous. If that really is the case, then the righteousness described by observing Torah in Deut 6:25, Psa 103:17-18, and Ezek 18:9 is a meaningless. Read the very 1st Psalm (in fact, first verse 1:1 but also 1:5) and you'll see the righteous distinguishable from the wicked. Scripture is replete with this message. Not all are "sinners" according to the christian POV. Some other scriptures that tear your view apart are Psa 119:155, Proverbs 11:6, 11:19, 11:31, 12:28, 13:6, 13:21, and 23:17. I could go on with many more if you'd like. If people aren't sinners, what are they? They're righteous, aren't they?
Look at Isa 1:21. How could there have been righteousness in Jerusalem if none were righteous? How does the righteous person of Ezek. 3:20 turn from his righteousness? How was he righteous in the 1st place since you say none are righteous?
To answer your concern about none are righteous, the fact is that at times - that may be true. Think of Sodom and Gomorrah. According to your view, what was Abraham thinking by asking to spare the cities on account of 50 or even 10 righteous people....considering (as you see it) that there can be none who are righteous?
Look at Psa 18:20 and 18:24, being rewarded according to one's own righteousness. The NT authors may not have faith in much of the Tanakh but that doesn't mean you don't have to either.
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| 11-19-2006 09:01 PM |
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