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Messiah Jesus is Avi-ad, the Father of Eternity
#11
Baptistic Wrote:
Tanachreader Wrote:The next name/title is  (avi-ad), and it appears in the Hebrew Bible only once, here in Isaiah 9:5.  Consequently, no comparisons are possible, though some analysis will shed light on how to correctly understand it.  This name/title is a compound term, in the possessive form, which is made up of two components.  The first component,  (avi), is the possessive form of the noun  (av).  The Hebrew noun  (av) appears in the Hebrew Bible 723 times, and in several different contexts.  The predominant application of this term is a father.  However, the (singular) noun is also applied as: (a) a grandfather (e.g., Gen 31:42, 32:10); (b) a progenitor of a line of descendants (e.g., Gen 17:4, Is 51:2); © one who is the first of a kind or an inventor (e.g., Gen 4:20,21); (d) an advisor, a counselor, a patron (e.g., Gen 45:8, Job 29:16); (e) a founder (e.g., Josh 17:1, 1 Chron 2:50).  In addition, the term is used as a form of address to a prophet, a king, etc. (e.g., 1 Sam 24:12, 2 Kgs 5:13), and in the plural it has additional applications in the Hebrew Bible; however, neither of these applications are significant to Isaiah 9:5[6].  Consequently, according to the various applications given above, the first component of this name/title,  (avi) can have meanings such as, father of…, or grandfather of…, or progenitor of…, etc.  

The second component of this name/title is  (ad), and it is used in Hebrew as either a preposition, such as by (a certain time); to, up-to; till, until, and as a noun, eternity, when in combinations with other terms.

Father as applied to God!
Ex:4:22: And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn

De:32:6: Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise?  is not he thy father that hath bought thee?  hath he not made thee, and established thee?

2Sa:7:14: I will be his father, and he shall be my son.  If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Psalms:89:26: He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Believers are called God's "sons" (John 1:12; Rom. 8:16;
Matt. 6:4, 8, 15, 18; 10:20, 29). They also call him "Father"
(Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:4)

SO SINCE LORD JESUS IS GOD THE NAME FATHER ALSO APPLIES TO HIM.
Jesus also makes a clear distinction between Himself and His Father even calling His Father greater than Himself as a Perfect Son would.
So we being God's children call Jesus the Everlating Father.
AND BAPTIST, SINCE JESUS IS MY EVERLASTING FATHER AND HE HAS A FATHER WHOM HE PRAYS TOO WHOM I LOVE VERY MUCH THAN WHAT AM I TOO CALL THE FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. Y@HOVAH IS MY GRANDFATHER GOD! THE GOD OF MY EVERLASTING FATHER.
Psalms:45:7: Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

SOME HAVE TRIED TO SAY ONLY YESHUA EXISTS AS GOD ETERNAL,
SOME HAVE TRIED TO SAY ONLY Y@HOVAH EXISTS AS GOD ETERNAL,
THE ETERNAL GOD IS Y@HOVAH, HIS SON YESHUA AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. THEY ARE ONE.

Tanachreader, you are attempting to make the Bible fit your own experiences and philosophy concerning who God is.  The Genesis reference you give refers to Abraham as a grandfather, not God as a grandfather.  You will be frustrated to try to make the grandfather theory work unless you refuse to read in context, because it is not in scripture at all that God is or could be properly addressed as a grandfather.

Isaiah 9:6 states by the name The Everlasting Father that Messiah (Jesus) is the possessor of eternity.  As the linked article said, Jesus possesses eternity; eternity does not possess Jesus.  This would also answer those who insist wrongly that Jesus was created.

Correctly identifying Messiah (Jesus) as The Everlasting Father is not the same as nor does it lead to addressing the Lord Jesus Christ as Father.  For us to address Christ as Father is not only incorrect but it dismantles our true relationship with the Father through Christ:  Jesus, the God-man is the way for us to have a legitimate relationship with the Father.  To address Christ as Father leads to the erroneous perception of the Father as the Grandfather God.

No; denying or renaming any of the Persons of the Godhead goes against how God has revealed Himself to us in the Word.

Tanachreader, God fills up our lives where we have been painfully bereft.  God also causes us to forget, over time, such pain.  That has been true in my own life.  In that sense I understand that God has been that absent grandfather to you in your life.  But if you are going to communicate to others theology, who God is, it is important to not use scripture to change God to fit your experience, because God does not change.  He is who He says He is, and there is no buried, as yet undiscovered by "dead" Christians, kind of hidden knowledge that can trump that which scripture shows, that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three Persons that are one.  This will be sufficient for you, and sufficient for me.

Baptistic I not saying everyone should call Jesus, Lord and Father but that is what I do. And I call His Father, Grandfather God. It's personal. It would dismantel your true relationship with the Father through Christ but my relationship is still with the Father whether I chose to put Grand in front of Father or not. He is still my God and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is the rock of my salvation!
Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite
Psalms:89:26: He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

And who is the rock. Peter answered that!
The Christ, the Son of the living God.
So if Psalms 89 says the Messiah is the rock it also says father and God!!
#12
Baptistic Wrote:No; denying or renaming any of the Persons of the Godhead goes against how God has revealed Himself to us in the Word.
God is a spirit a Holy Spirit and as such He can dwell in any vessel he wants to and he can create a vessel if he so chooses which he did when he created the fleshly vessel he inhabited...Jesus

God's name was Jesus so we agree he was self existant..the flesh was created as is noted in Titus

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

  Now the only PERSON mentioned in scripture in relation to the Godhead is Jesus
...
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

In who? Jesus
what makes up the godhead?  Father,Son and Holy Ghost

How many persons?  One

One Person three offices like you are a father,son and Uncle so
Jesus is a Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

That's what scripture says.

He is one God in one Person

Maybe the word of God is so clear that he is in ONE PERSON that his subtly is boggling your minds.

No where as I have said before is 3 persons referred to in relation to the godhead except in your imaginations.  
Act 4:19  But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
#13
GoyOfY'shua Wrote:The only part I'd question is God the Father being God the Grandfather, and God the Son being God the Father. This is why I said, "I'll post the proof for my argument here later, but it's a Calvinist thing I'd have to Google." I found two arguments, though. In the words of Tony Evans, "God don't have grandchildren", and we're brothers and sisters in God the Son.

That's right.  Romans 8:16-18

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:  17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.  18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Tony Evans is an excellent preacher ("The Alternative").  You can hear him over WMBI online at 1:30pm CST.

http://www.mbn.org/GenMoody/default.asp?sectionID=DB744B6F6170401986870E1521EEC4F9
Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
#14
Baptistic Wrote:
GoyOfY'shua Wrote:The only part I'd question is God the Father being God the Grandfather, and God the Son being God the Father. This is why I said, "I'll post the proof for my argument here later, but it's a Calvinist thing I'd have to Google." I found two arguments, though. In the words of Tony Evans, "God don't have grandchildren", and we're brothers and sisters in God the Son.

That's right.  Romans 8:16-18

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:  17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.  18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Tony Evans is an excellent preacher ("The Alternative").  You can hear him over WMBI online at 1:30pm CST.

http://www.mbn.org/GenMoody/default.asp?sectionID=DB744B6F6170401986870E1521EEC4F9
M't:12:48: But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
M't:12:49: And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

M't:12:50: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

AND does this make some of you women literally the Lord's Mother. Certainly not.
HYPER-LITERALISM! You are to be as little children to the Lord Jesus. Jesus is eternal, the Creator. He was and is always obedient to His Father. It was His Father's will that He be born a Human.
Jesus said we are to be as little children. My personal relationship is that the Lord Jesus treats me like his kid, child and my relationship with His Father is like a GrandFather. Yes it is that close. If I goof up than the Lord Jesus speaks to me, chastises me. That is all I'm saying. Baptistic your just trying to discredit my close personal relationship with the Trinity. Why, I'm guessing because God isn't yet close to you in a personal relationship. He will be one day. Seeing God in the OT is scriptual. I am Born Again in the NT and it was never a problem with me, I always want to see and know God and He gave me my hearts desire.
Again:
There is nothing qerky, creepy about this. All I was saying is this is the way God treats me. From this you imply my walk with God is cultish, that I'm decieved and it is unclean spirits that I may have mistaken for God.
Again you are very young in spritual knowledge, it is an awsome thing to be in the presence of God Almighty.

As for the passage
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Prove it Baptistic, what does the above mean! Let's hear your explaination in a personal way and not with a clinical cold explanation.

As for Tony Evans I found this site that challenges

http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas38.html

#15
Tanachreader Wrote:
Baptistic Wrote:
GoyOfY'shua Wrote:The only part I'd question is God the Father being God the Grandfather, and God the Son being God the Father. This is why I said, "I'll post the proof for my argument here later, but it's a Calvinist thing I'd have to Google." I found two arguments, though. In the words of Tony Evans, "God don't have grandchildren", and we're brothers and sisters in God the Son.

That's right. Romans 8:16-18

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Tony Evans is an excellent preacher ("The Alternative"). You can hear him over WMBI online at 1:30pm CST.

http://www.mbn.org/GenMoody/default.asp?sectionID=DB744B6F6170401986870E1521EEC4F9
M't:12:48: But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
M't:12:49: And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

M't:12:50: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

AND does this make some of you women literally the Lord's Mother. Certainly not.
HYPER-LITERALISM! You are to be as little children to the Lord Jesus. Jesus is eternal, the Creator. He was and is always obedient to His Father. It was His Father's will that He be born a Human.
Jesus said we are to be as little children. My personal relationship is that the Lord Jesus treats me like his kid, child and my relationship with His Father is like a GrandFather. Yes it is that close. If I goof up than the Lord Jesus speaks to me, chastises me. That is all I'm saying. Baptistic your just trying to discredit my close personal relationship with the Trinity. Why, I'm guessing because God isn't yet close to you in a personal relationship. He will be one day. Seeing God in the OT is scriptual. I am Born Again in the NT and it was never a problem with me, I always want to see and know God and He gave me my hearts desire.
Again:
There is nothing qerky, creepy about this. All I was saying is this is the way God treats me. From this you imply my walk with God is cultish, that I'm decieved and it is unclean spirits that I may have mistaken for God.
Again you are very young in spritual knowledge, it is an awsome thing to be in the presence of God Almighty.

Baptistic: Tanachreader, to contradict your claim that God is not a grandfather is not hyper-literalism. Jesus has many names in scripture, none of which say He is the Father. This thread begun by me is, however, pointing out that Isaiah tells of His name The Everlasting Father, which means that Messiah (Jesus) is the possessor of eternity.

Jesus is simply not the Father, as is erroneously claimed by those who are persuaded of the oneness theology. It also serves to refute those who claim the Son was created.


As for the passage
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Prove it Baptistic, what does the above mean! Let's hear your explaination in a personal way and not with a clinical cold explanation.

Baptistic: Is this the issue of this thread?... I sure hope you don't talk to little children like this. Because you're convinced I'm a spiritual child.

Although once in a while here I talk in a more personal way, I am not about to subject myself to you esp. when you communicate in a very unloving way.


As for Tony Evans I found this site that challenges

http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas38.html

Baptistic: Hmmm. Another quasi-Christian site, this one authored by someone named "Ralph." No serious challenger is he to Evans. He is entitled to post whatever he likes, but reading his review of Tony Evans' book does nothing to discredit Evans. Mr. Ralph has a different interpretation of the scripture than Evans; but Evans remains a true preacher of the Word.

Tanachreader, This thread is not a personal attack on you, so I am not sure why you are reacting this way. It is as though you have no real interest in the point here. You have apparently taken our discussion concerning "experiences as proof" from the trinity thread and brought it here, where it serves to now make yourself the focus, whereas I was hoping the main focus could be on the Messiah described in Isaiah. If asserting your spiritual superiority is all your desire, then I will take your assertions under advisement, because I will not become involved in a fleshly contest of who's got the most spiritual chops.
Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
#16
To who ever wrote
I would suggest you look at the Bible

My reply is

I would suggest you read the Bible
Act 4:19  But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
#17
Someone(again no identity) sent this little tidbit...

You need to try to read those passages in the context of Elohim.

Ok Elohim
1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God





These are the passages being referred to

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

  Now the only PERSON mentioned in scripture in relation to the Godhead is Jesus
...
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

They are self expanatory to me and quite clear...even in the quote "context of elohim"

The passages still prove beyond any doubt that Jesus is GOD and that He alone is the Father,Son and Holy Ghost in ONE PERSON...

Maybe the mystery writer should study what ELOHIM means a little more closely

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 4:19  But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
Act 4:19  But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
#18
Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


some can argue   God being the first part then the flesh being the second part and justifited in the spirit being the 3d part.


as also in the first book of the bible you can read this.   God and the spirit of God hummer over the waters.
#19
prophet, I was not that mystery writer you refer to above, but I noticed today that Brianroy elaborated on "Elohim" in the thread the trinity (Post #279) in the Theology forum, so readers who are interested in that word can take a look.  Brianroy presents detail that many have not had opportunity to explore and I am sure he would welcome questions or comments there.  Whether I have asked him in a PM or on the forums, he has always obliged in gracious detail.

Hammering the word "Elohim" though does not always bring conviction.  Sometimes a different word can help, and that is what I hoped to bring out in this one detail concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the father (possessor) of purpose, of all eternity.  All things were made by Him and for Him, the scripture says.  So at once this reference answers a multilayered stack of arguments presented by different persuasions, foremost that of Deity (answering a multitude of cults) and Sonship (defeating modalism, for one cannot be his own father or his own son).
Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
#20
Baptistic Wrote:Hammering the word "Elohim" though does not always bring conviction.  Sometimes a different word can help, and that is what I hoped to bring out in this one detail concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the father (possessor) of purpose, of all eternity.  All things were made by Him and for Him, the scripture says.  So at once this reference answers a multilayered stack of arguments presented by different persuasions, foremost that of Deity (answering a multitude of cults) and Sonship (defeating modalism, for one cannot be his own father or his own son).
.
I wasn't sure who it was that left the statement since I was told only cowards don't tell you their names so sometimes the wrong people get messages...my apologies for any misunderstanding

Hammering the word "Elohim" though does not always bring conviction

we agree(will wonders never cease)

Well I don't agree...you are limiting what God can do to what man can do...and the God I serve can create a vessel(Jesus) indwell such vessel(Jesus) and be that man/God...therefore He can be His own Son..since the whole Godhead is in Christ..I don't know anything about modalism...all I know and preach is that God the Father is Jesus Christ...course if we want to get real technical the Holy Spirit is the Father but why rehash what is in another thread?

Me Elohim is God singular.....Jesus  
Act 4:19  But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.


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