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The London confessions
outofdarkness in response to Whirlingmerc (from old board),

Confessions are very important since they convey what a person believes. The single most important confession is that Y'shua is Lord. We are to basically say the same thing that the Bible says if we want to be truthful. It is not necessary necessarily to agree with other historical confessions.

Whether or not the London confessions agreed with the Apostles' confession would not be of much concern if it was not for the fact that a large percentage of believers today have a history of holding to those confessions. I myself was a Baptist. For many years, I considered myself to be a Bible believing Baptist even though I was far removed from that particular kind of Baptist Church.

The people of the confessions, by their own confession, did not have that close relationship with God that the Apostles had. Even my father a first generation believer and missionary with basic teaching and practice, observed that the Holy Spirit directed everything. That is "revealing His will" and that was after the death and resurrection of Y'shua. Since that time, nothing has changed.

Does that mean that I am the only one that has noticed this obvious error after some 1500 years or so? That would be encouraging to know that I have a place in the body of Messiah but I don't believe so. I may be a little more vocal about it because I may have less fear and not much to lose but I am not the first nor the only one to believe that God can speak to us.

There may be value in much of what they said. That does not mean that I have to contradict the teaching of Scripture if they do.

We all know what they were thinking, perhaps and we all know why they said what they said. Among other reasons, it was because it seemed everyone was saying that they had a word from God. They basically tricked people into constantly referring back to the Scriptures. That trick was not without consequences but they did get people to go to the Bible as a reference. So we have done so, and so have I. Scripture tells us to let our utterances be as it were the utterances of God... so that He is glorified. That does not seem to me like a God who is second to anyone anytime.


outofdarkness (old board)

...I never did say I was good at picking a name but before anyone says that we should be seeking love first and foremost, allow me to remind you that prophecy is the practical application of love for God, love of His word and virtually the only way we can truly love another person...speaking God's word, the message of His provision of salvation through Y'shua. If you will notice, prophecy is spoken of directly before and after 1 Corinthians 13 as though to be saying the same thing.

Remember love, remember shalom, and remember to prophesy.

of course .... but when you say The Holy Spirit directs everything... he can use many things...

he can use the wisdom of from centuries ago... widsom from now... wisome seen of the creator in nature... wisdom from the sciptures as an anchor...

some poeple saw the errors of one age might be corrected by the wisdom from another ager... by biographies etc etc..

( whilrlingmerc turned into a cberTruthTiger )
SaberTruthTiger Wrote:of course ....   but when you say The Holy Spirit directs everything...   he can use many things...

he can use the wisdom of from centuries ago...  widsom from now... wisome seen of the creator in nature...  wisdom from the sciptures as an anchor...

some poeple saw the errors of one age might be corrected by the wisdom from another ager... by biographies etc etc..

( whilrlingmerc  turned into a cberTruthTiger )

The issue is: Does or does not God reveal His will?

Peace brother!
SaberTruthTiger Wrote:of course ....   but when you say The Holy Spirit directs everything...   he can use many things...

he can use the wisdom of from centuries ago...  widsom from now... wisome seen of the creator in nature...  wisdom from the sciptures as an anchor...

some poeple saw the errors of one age might be corrected by the wisdom from another ager... by biographies etc etc..

( whilrlingmerc  turned into a cberTruthTiger )


keep in mind too (you seem to be avoiding the issue), that it is not about what He can do, it is about what He did do. He spoke directly to the Apostles and the New Covenant Prophets and told them to do this or that, go here or there. As far a we are concerned, it is an issue of what He can do. He can speak to us the same as He did the New Covenant believers... and that is also what we are supposed to be. We are supposed to have the same faith they had.

The devil is in the (bad or confusing) definitions. It seems to me, you are putting up a smoke screen. Saying that God does not reveal His will like He used to is not wisdom. It is the very tactic that I am against.

sorry.... not meant as a smoke and mirrors thing

it was more a case of writing the same post twice before seeing the reponse ... since there is a delay... I do not have any problem with the Holy Spirit revealing His will many ways... he once gave a name and address for someone to go to a street called straight and lookup a young rabbi student from Tarsus. In fact many people claim that today many Muslims and Jews come to faith because of dreams and visions given by G-d

I just think people also have their own sets of bias and errors form this age and the wisdom of past ages can be helpful, biographies can be helpful, confessions can be helpful... someone walking in the freshness of a walk wth G-d should also appreciate the wisdon from saints who lived and struggled in previous centuries and perhaps alot to learn from their struggles.

I dont mean to sound over crticial... but...If I was going to make a list of eccentric theos of today... it might include some people who invoke the Holy Spirit at the drop of the hat but seem to have trouble seperating their own speculations from revelation and sometimes let go
of orthodoxy too quickly, I would reluctantly give Benny Hinn and Bishop Jakes as examples of sometimes being on the eccentric side
not meaning to say they never give people helpful practical advice... but are not as sound in doctrine as they should be
SaberTruthTiger Wrote:not meant as a smoke and mirrors thing

sound in doctrine

I believe there is no reason to fear anything in saying and doing the right thing. What others do should have no bearing on what we do.

There is often no relationship between what people do in error and what God tells us to do. Hearing God and saying so is honesty. Saying God said something when He did not is lying. Even this error may stem from an underlying belief that God doesn't really speak to us because if God does really speak to us, there is no reason to fabricate a story.

Another example might be two definitions of pride. The two words have no relationship. The opposite of one is humility while the opposite of the other word is shame. Shame is the result of a shortcoming while humility is a virtue.

That is an example of the devil (confusion) being in the definition.

in fact it appears in Timothy and other letters, Paul is quoting some "faithful sayings" at times...

a early type of a confession?
SaberTruthTiger Wrote:"faithful sayings"
Having faithful sayings is one thing, saying God no longer reveals His will to us like He used to is another thing altogether.

I have a quote from something I wrote yesterday somewhere.

It seems the sole purpose of the London Confessions was to take the initiative or responsibility upon themselves to say that God no longer reveals His will to us the way He used to. This action was taken in response to people saying they had yet another word from God. So the motivation they had was basically that they were afraid. Not only did they take the initiative upon themselves to speak for God something He clearly did not say, they were afraid that God's word by itself would not be able to hold its own against false teachings. They felt they had to add something. Their fear did not change anything as far as God's word is concerned. His word always remains true regardless of their fear of false teachings.

We are told that the one that speaks of his own initiative seeks his own glory. God always directed His Church by revealing His will. He told people to go here, go there, do this or do that. That is revealing His will. Other than the London Confessions, where do people get this idea of saying that God no longer reveals His will?... like He used to?

How can a fear of false teaching lead to false teaching?

Easy, they did not trust that God's word was able to hold its own against false teaching by itself, so they tried to lend a hand in order to steady or help the word of God. That should be ringing bells of alarm. We know what happened to anyone who tried to steady the Ark of God... he died. So too the teaching of the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists and other London Confessions negate themselves by their own confession. This is rather shocking. The attempts to define truth end up being a lie themselves! Everyone knows that God's word is living and active. Everyone knows that God convicts each and every man of sin righteousness and judgment. Everyone should know that we are told in Scripture to let everything that we say be as it were the utterances of God so that He is glorified. How can such an obvious error escape the view of some of our brightest minds? I don't know but I would be happy if these erroneous teachings are never taught again. I would like for everyone to be able to say, "Hey, these teachings are false!"

There is nothing wrong with making a list of "faithful sayings", or using good Scriptural texts. There is something wrong with saying that God stopped speaking to us. Remember too that there is no other name that we should name other than the name of the Lord. Our trust is to be in God alone. We don't need self-made crutches.

Behold, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with firebrands, Walk in the light of your fire And among the brands you have set ablaze. This you will have from My hand: You will lie down in torment. Isaiah 50:11

I think God is telling me for this time 2006 there is much deception, in Gods' good time it would seem there would also be an abundance of truth.
Where sin did abound and does abound grace will yet excel (surpass) all thank God for the words that inspire one to seek the truth of Jesus Christ. I know in part then shall I know even as I am known. Jesus "I have known you from the beginning and have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not" --for me. Blessed am I that have not seen and yet believe. Smile Y'shua is Lord! Smile
Jesus said to the apostles that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth  so I would say the apostles were led into all essentials doctrinal truth for salvation and if someone comes up with a new essential  I would raise an eyebrow.  Likewise Jude said to contend earnestly for the faith delivered up once for all time to the saints  and the apostles are pictured in several places as the foundation since their witness is foundational to the message of the gospel  and even having their names written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem to strengthen the point.

However saying that doesnt mean G-d can't lead someone, give them a dream or in some other way directly or indirectly talk to them

Human nature being what it is, it is easy for a person to confuse their preferences for the leading of G-d  and  having the scriptures as an anchor is necessary for us to hang onto since it's a little easy to ocnvince yourself of being led one way when it might be your dreams not G-d's sometimes

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