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TALMUD
#71
Quote:..........It seems the days would vary on weather conditions, and travel would seem to me could sometimes be a week off by the time they announced it. I wouldn't have wanted that job! But it seems to reflect a spiritual order, as well as time. Did you know Mars is going to be to the human eye as big as the moon by late August this year?and not to happen for another 22,000 years!It will look like a blood moon!Is there a significance to this event? Shalom my friend!....

Ah thanks now I understand better.
Indeed weather conditions did play a part. And maybe also the western influence to create a steady calander...
The Almighty also didn't give all very precize details how to ''count'' the moon. There are some oral traditions, but in Torah it's not always clear and maybe doesn't have to be.

Shabbat is based on ''from evening till evening''. For it is written that ''first there was evening and than there was morning, 1 day''. And also when we where commanded to keep the 1st and 10th day of the 7th month, it's written ''from Evening till Evening''.
SO WHAT IS EVENING.... (in Hebrew it's written Erev, the same root as for Eruv). Evening is when it's not night yet but getting dark... So when does the evening start exactly??? before the sun is down completely?
There are a lot of questions, so for Shabbath the rule is that it's realy shabbath if the sun is under the horizon. But because we are not completely shure in the mountains, and want to put some extra safety, we ''Start'' to be carefull 18 or 40 minutes before sundown.
(Eruv in Hebrew also means mixture, Erev is than a mixture of day/light and night/dark).

About stars and planets we don't have that much rulings...

When the Temple was still there, the Jews had the tradition to measure the moon also only if it was (I think) about 15degrees above the horizon, so that you could see it clearly and that there was no distortion. Than we could see if the new moon was there realy. If it was cloudy I don't know exactly what they did.
Indeed with fires on mountains etc. It took maybe a few hours that every Israelite knew. For the Jews in Babylon (or Rome etc.) it took longer to know it, besides that, they where allready in different timezones. The Almighty didn't say us how to deal with timezones. But to be shure certain festival days where and are kept 2 days instead of 1 day outside of Israel.

Greetings.
#72
Sheitl Queen Wrote:Messianics follow a lot of Oral Law and rabbinical law whether they know it or not.
If they have a mezzuzah, wear tzitzit , a tallis, fefillin.....where in the Torah does it explain how to fulfill these mitzvot?

Yarmulkes, candle lighting for shabbas and yom tov, hamotzi, benchting,
al netilat yadaim....none of this is in the written Torah.

The Mezuzah: is found in Deuteronomy 6:9 And you shall write them upon the posts of your house, and on your gates.
The Tzitzit: Deuteronomy 22:12
You shall make yourself fringes upon the four quarters of your clothing, wherewith you cover yourself.
The Tefillin: Is not in the New Covenant, you're not to cover your head when you pray. Women in the New Covenant are suppose to cover their head when they pray though.
A Kippah, you cannot find in the New Covenant, a lot of Messianics do that too. It is all in their belief.

Sheitl Queen Wrote:Many messianics try to duplicate Jewish life-keeping "rabbinically" kosher,
following shabbas observance in the same way as Jews...putting on
tefillin, tallis, using mezuzot..all based on oral law. I have always thought
it quite hypocritical that they don't believe in the very thing they are
using to determine how to observe the mitzvot: the Oral Law.

How they observe Shabbat and the rest you mentioned, if true, then yep they are following closer to the Oral Law. Sad, if it is all Talmud and Midrash, the Kippha is Talmud for example.

Although, I'm not saying you cannot find those boxes in the New Covenant, there might be a reference to it and I just can't find it...

Anyway, I agree with you, I can see the hypocrisy in some things Messianics say in comparison to what they do.
#73
MessianicJew Wrote:[The Mezuzah: is found in Deuteronomy 6:9 And you shall write them upon the posts of your house, and on your gates.
The Tzitzit: Deuteronomy 22:12
Of course those are in the Torah, but how are you supposed to observe them? Why aren't you writing the words on the doorposts of your house
with a magic marker? Or writing them on paper and taping it to your
door posts?
Why write them on a little scroll and put them in a cover?

How are you supposed to tie tzitzit? Or why tie them at all? Why
not unravel some of your four cornered garment, or just hang one
or two (or more?) threads on your garment? How long? How short?
Do you have to wear them if you are not wearing a four cornered
garment?

As I said before...how to observe the commandments is not always described
in the Torah. It tells us what to do , but not how to do it.
#74
Sheitl Queen Wrote:Of course those are in the Torah, but how are you supposed to observe them?

Ah, I see what you're saying now.

Sheitl Queen Wrote:Why aren't you writing the words on the doorposts of your house
with a magic marker?

I don't own a house in which I can do this, God willing, if I ever do I will though. I don't know about others.

Sheitl Queen Wrote:Or writing them on paper and taping it to your
door posts?

I do this though, keeps the land lord happy Smile

Sheitl Queen Wrote:Why write them on a little scroll and put them in a cover?

I know, I don't get it either. I don't get the broad brim hats, curly hair suit and ties either. Or the Kippah for that matter, I see many Messianic's do this....

Sheitl Queen Wrote:How are you supposed to tie tzitzit? Or why tie them at all? Why
not unravel some of your four cornered garment, or just hang one
or two (or more?) threads on your garment? How long? How short?
Do you have to wear them if you are not wearing a four cornered
garment?

There you go...it gets worse when you read how much of the law we're actually suppose to keep and what they teach you that you have to keep. Which isn't very much these days. Then they add to the law and don't keep it themselves like the Pharisees at the time of Jesus. I mean, fringes are fringes what is with all the stuff you mentioned...it is just opinion of men.

Sheitl Queen Wrote:As I said before...how to observe the commandments is not always described in the Torah. It tells us what to do , but not how to do it.

Well, that is creativity for you. It is just when like you said, theses teachers start saying do it this way or that...then you can see where corruption sets in.

But in general the how part isn't that hard. When you make fringes you make fringes. If they're different then others, the Torah doesn't say nay. Just as long as one blue string is blue...
#75

Quote:There you go...it gets worse when you read how much of the law we're actually suppose to keep and what they teach you that you have to keep. Which isn't very much these days. Then they add to the law and don't keep it themselves like the Pharisees at the time of Jesus. I mean, fringes are fringes what is with all the stuff you mentioned...it is just opinion of men.
Quote:Well, that is creativity for you. It is just when like you said, theses teachers start saying do it this way or that...then you can see where corruption sets in.

Why is it worse??? There is not a lot to keep, and there are a lot of oral traditions from the old times we can learn from. If people don’t learn they might even know less what they are talking about.
Why is it worse??? Is it just an opinion of Jesus that fringes are not allowed to be to long? Or does he base it on other things? Not on Talmud, but maybe on Oral tradition? And why not allowed, should we keep Jesus ruling? His opinion about it is not written in Torah. So Jesus says nay, where the Torah doesn’t, is Jesus than corrupt?
Torah says it has to be four corners, question might be: 1 blue fringe in the total of 4 corners, or 1 on every corner. And if you have a fifth corner what do you do. And if people start to do it on clothes with 1 corner?
I did meet 1 Messianic who had a red fringe instead of blue, is that allowed?
People start to do all kind of things, when they don’t know the Torahs. Or they take the other extreme like Paul tries to be more extreme than Jesus by keeping less and less laws, maybe because he did run away from Yeshiva.
#76
(11-05-2011, 03:35 PM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: Why is it worse??? There is not a lot to keep, and there are a lot of oral traditions from the old times we can learn from. If people don’t learn they might even know less what they are talking about.

How much of the below do you do?

1. Shewbread.
2. The continual meat offering.
3. The continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel.
4. The wood offering, to bring it into the house of our God, after the houses of our fathers, at times appointed year by year, to burn upon the altar of the LORD our God, as it is written in the law
5. Keep not only the feast of tabernacles, as it is written, but also offer the daily burnt offerings by number, according to the custom, as the duty is required everyday.
6. Building an altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings on it, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.
7. Offering the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated

(11-05-2011, 03:35 PM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: Why is it worse??? Is it just an opinion of Jesus that fringes are not allowed to be to long? Or does he base it on other things? Not on Talmud, but maybe on Oral tradition?

It is more on the heart, why they make them real long. Some get puffed up and do it to show themselves more Holy than others.

#77
(11-05-2011, 03:35 PM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: And why not allowed, should we keep Jesus ruling? His opinion about it is not written in Torah. So Jesus says nay, where the Torah doesn’t, is Jesus than corrupt?

Sure we should keep Jesus' rulings, Jesus always pointed to the heart of the person. That was a problem of many Pharisees, they were outwardly honest and appeared to keep the law, but inwardly they sought various admiration from men and enjoyed the perks from men rather then drawing close to God with a whole heart. Once Jesus truly frees you from the law you can't keep, you are free.

(11-05-2011, 03:35 PM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: Torah says it has to be four corners, question might be: 1 blue fringe in the total of 4 corners, or 1 on every corner. And if you have a fifth corner what do you do. And if people start to do it on clothes with 1 corner?

Just one blue string. That is what is written. That's what I read.

(11-05-2011, 03:35 PM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: I did meet 1 Messianic who had a red fringe instead of blue, is that allowed?

We're at liberty so grace follows this Messianic in Christ. Christ kept the whole law with a whole heart, Christ is sinless and there is no guile found in Jesus. But if you go by the law, it should be one blue string.

(11-05-2011, 03:35 PM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: People start to do all kind of things, when they don’t know the Torahs. Or they take the other extreme like Paul tries to be more extreme than Jesus by keeping less and less laws, maybe because he did run away from Yeshiva.

Jesus walked before God with a whole heart and kept the Torah. Apostle Paul taught that it is impossible to keep it all, and that those who did it with justification before God by their works in doing the laws were foolish. Only Jesus is the real passover lamb now.


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