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Replacement Theology: What's the deal?
#1
I know that Messianic Jews generally are strongly in disfavor of so-called "replacement theology", the idea that Spiritual Israel replaces National Israel as the Kingdom of God.

There is obviously *some* substance to the claim based on the following:

(1) In Revelation, members of every kindred, tribe, nation and tongue are before the throne worshiping the Lamb in heaven.

(2) Members of national Israel who were ignoring God's commandments were routinely threatened to be "cut off" from among the people in the Bible (Jezebel, Korah, etc).

(3) Sha'ul, or Paul, speaks of "Jerusalem from above" that is still free of demonic control, unlike the Jerusalem on earth, and that by FAITH in Messiah you belong to her.

(4) He also said neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matter, but "a new creature" -- the testimony of positively changed behavior and personality changes.

How is what Sha'ul significantly different than so-called Replacement Theology?   Because of Messiah, isn't a gentile with a changed-lifestyle testimony different than a totally secular, atheistic or agnostic Israeli?

I'm confused... I realize secular Israeli's likely wouldn't care, but if they are offended, go repent and worship then!!  
#2
Shabbis Goy Wrote:I know that Messianic Jews generally are strongly in disfavor of so-called "replacement theology", the idea that Spiritual Israel replaces National Israel as the Kingdom of God.
As explained in more detail in this link from gotquestions, "All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology / Covenant Theology), or the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism)."

Israel is God's peculiar, chosen people and remains so throughout eternity.  Israel as a people is named as the object of God's everlasting love.  The nations are bidden to hear it, and God makes it a matter of it resting upon His Name and credentials as the Creator that Israel will never cease as a nation from before Him.  Jeremiah 31  The religious, legal and governmental powers have no room to presume to change that.  

In the Church there is neither Jew nor gentile, but one peculiar called out people in Christ Jesus.  The Church will showcase the riches of God's grace throughout eternity.  Ephesians 2:7

In all dispensations, all the glory belongs to Jesus Christ, who is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  

#3
The picture that is presented in Revelation is 12,000 from every tribe are sealed because they are servants of God. I happen to think these 144,000 are a tithe of all those in Israel that are redeemed, to serve God in God's Temple as the Levites were once tasked to do. The ones that are from every nation, tongue, tribe are the gentiles that have trusted in God because of what He did for His Son. The Jew and Gentile reunite as one family, as one man.
Shalom,
Christopher
#4
The only thing I agree with is that you are confused.

What you put doesn't nessissarilly substantiate the what covenant theologians say.

The main thing is that God has a future for National Israel.

This is a complex issue.

So I am not totally slamming you for throwing the word confused in here.
#5
Yes, I don't think there is any question that according to the B'rit Hadashah, a gentile who believes in the good news of Yeshua and changes his/her life will belong to God far more than somebody randomly born to a Jewish mother who doesn't believe in Adonai at all.  

But I agree, that doesn't mean that political Israel isn't near and dear to the heart of God, and that it is the center of the world at the crossroads of Europe, Asia and Africa where God's Son died and came back to life for EVERYBODY who believes it.

Still, I think God judged sinful New Orleans immediately after the US Govt gave away Israeli lands.  I don't think it was a coincidence at all.  In fact, if I were the US President I would ask the Lebanese, Saudis and Jordanians what they were doing on the land of the Yahudim and take the position that the Israeli national borders should be recognized as the Abrahamic land grant all the way to the Nile (whatever it was I actually don't recall offhand).

So it's safe to say I wouldn't get voted for.  :-)

Don't get me wrong, either -- I saw the "woman of the Israeli army" video on youtube.  I have no complaints to report  :-)
#6
I do not believe God is finish with The Nation israel
#7
Replacement theology (supersessionism) says that the Church is the new Israel -  that the promises made to Israel have now been given to the Church INSTEAD of Israel because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah and the new covenant he brought.  They say the promises made to Israel were really for the Church - they grossly spiritualize all the physical promises of land, etc. and make them strictly about spiritual things instead.  

But this is ludicrous.  Most of the promises to Israel were unconditional, e.g. the land, Messianic seed, new covenant, peace, etc.  And they were clearly made to ethnic Israel.  Unlike other religions like Buddhism, Greek mythology, new age philosophy, etc. the Scriptures are very earthy - our religion is about spiritual things, but in the real physical world - forever - we don't melt into the mind of G-d in the age to come.

The new covenant of Jeremiah 31 is clearly for ethnic Israel and even though some have been graciously grafted into this promise, it clearly has not been fulfilled, i.e. given to the one it was promised to.  I eagerly await that day when "all Israel will be saved" - Romans 11:26.

I don't see a single reference to Israel or Jew in the NT that refers to the gentile believers.  I do see passages that talk about the true Israel, but that refers to the remnant within ethnic Israel - not gentile believers.  But of course I do see references to gentiles being called seeds of (the gentile) Abraham.  Gentile and Jewish believers are spiritual seeds of Abraham, but the NT doesn't call gentiles spiritual Israel or spiritual Jews.  That's so that we don't make the mistake of replacement theology.  Romans 9-11 specifically teach us not to boast about how we've replaced Israel, instead we are to eagerly await the fulfillment of their eternal election into the new covenant!

BTW, whereas most dispensationalists see "the Church" as a special new entity starting at Pentecost, I do not.  I don't see the term ecclessia (Greek word translated church) as a special new entity.  If we want to define the church as the body of believers, we should include folks all the way back to the garden of Eden.  People have always been saved the same way - by faith in the atonement provided by G-d alone.  I do not see a Scriptural basis for a new entity called the church starting at Shavuot.
#8
ThirdDay, the Church and the OT/Tribulation believers have separate resurrections and dwellingplaces in the Kingdom.  The Church aka the Bride returns with Christ at the climax of the Tribulation whereas Israel's remnant is on the earth.  The Bride's home is in the New Jerusalem, not the Promised Land.  The Church is described as being neither Jew nor gentile but one in Christ.  Israel, from OT and post-Church rapture times is Israel, contrasted with the nations.  There is a distinction made in scripture, and as you affirm, all believers [from all dispensations] are saved by faith in the blood of Christ.  This emphasizes rather the merit of Christ alone and not of one particular group [or dispensation].  
#9
Quote:So it's safe to say I wouldn't get voted for.  :-)

You and me both...LOL... but God will do what He wants re: the Nation, through whom He wants, at His appointed time.

Quote:BTW, whereas most dispensationalists see "the Church" as a special new entity starting at Pentecost, I do not.  I don't see the term ecclessia (Greek word translated church) as a special new entity.  If we want to define the church as the body of believers, we should include folks all the way back to the garden of Eden.  People have always been saved the same way - by faith in the atonement provided by G-d alone.  I do not see a Scriptural basis for a new entity called the church starting at Shavuot.

Me neither, ThirdDay, and I am glad to see someone else who thinks as I do. Considering we are grafted in, not replacing, or next to... one Vine; One plan, one Gospel, one Savior. Sheep and goats, not sheep, goats, and cattle. Believers and unbelivers, not those two and another "something".
#10
Baptistic, I don't think all of this (dispensational) view (tradition) is Scriptural.

Baptistic Wrote:ThirdDay, the Church and the OT/Tribulation believers have separate resurrections and dwellingplaces in the Kingdom.  The Church aka the Bride returns with Christ at the climax of the Tribulation whereas Israel's remnant is on the earth.  The Bride's home is in the New Jerusalem, not the Promised Land.  
Where does it say the OT saints (I presume you mean pre-cross saints) will resurrect separately from post-cross saints?  It says the dead in Messiah will rise first (1Thes 4) then the living (one group immediately after the other - the pretrib rapture) - all getting new bodies like Messiah - no distinction is made between pre-cross/post-cross  believers though.  The dead believers will include both Jew and Gentile from both time periods.  The bride that returns with Messiah will be include believers from both periods - both Jew and Gentile together.  This is consistent with the text - right?

BTW, when you say "Israel's remnant" are you talking about Jews who become believers during the tribulation (vs. pre-trib Jewish believers).  If not I'd have to disagree.  Jews and Gentile believers will be raptured.

Note, Luke 16 talks about where saints before the crucifixion resided (Abraham's bosum), but after Yeshua paid for their sins they were free to enter the presence of G-d, where post-cross believers also go.  Agreed?
Baptistic Wrote:The Church is described as being neither Jew nor gentile but one in Christ.  Israel, from OT and post-Church rapture times is Israel, contrasted with the nations.  There is a distinction made in scripture, and as you affirm, all believers [from all dispensations] are saved by faith in the blood of Christ.  This emphasizes rather the merit of Christ alone and not of one particular group [or dispensation].  
Yes, I agree with most of this.  But I think you make a false distinction between pre-cross and post-cross believers that isn't Scriptural.  Why do you call one the Church and not the other?  The plan of ecclessia (called out ones) includes the Jewish remnant and converted Gentiles from all times, pre and post cross.  The elect has been getting born again unto repentance and faith in the atonment of G-d alone from the Garden until today - right?

Shalom brother


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