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Why Jesus is NOT the Messiah
#1
I would like to pose a challenge to the Christians here, and show that I can answer it for the Jewish side.

Please show me at least 3 passages in the Tenach where the following Christian beliefs can be found IN ONE PLACE:

• Messianic ruler to be born of a virgin.
• Messianic ruler to be G-d incarnate.
• Messianic ruler to die for sins.
• Belief in the Messianic ruler (and his death/resurrection) needed to get atonement for sins.
• Messianic ruler to come twice, after many hundreds of years.

Now I will provide at least three passages where the following End Times beliefs of Judaism occur:

1. End of Exile
2. World peace
3. A King of David's line leading
4. Israel G-d's people

Isaiah 11:1-16
Jeremiah 30:1-25
Ezekiel 37:21-28

I could, of course, add many more passages, but let me only list 5 more that are similar to the above 3:
Deut. 30:1-10
Isaiah 2:2-4
Ezekiel 34:20-31
Ezekiel 36:22-38
Jeremiah 23:5-8

As I said, I have limited these. Where the Jewish view is clear, repeated constantly in the prophets, we do not find the same with the Christian view. There is lack of clarity, and no consistancy. Even if we allow that prophecies that are not germain to this issue (like Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9) are allowed, they do not cooberate the other ones in any clear manner. The ones I have mentioned constantly reference the end times and give the same general picture again and again. Any objective person comparign the facts, will obviosly be in the position of either rejectign Jesus, or rejecting the word of G-d.
#2
[size=large]Why should a person have to show 3 times? Once should be enough!
#3
OK Moishe, just for you. Show me one passage in the Tenach where it has all
of the following:

• Messianic ruler to be born of a virgin.
• Messianic ruler to be G-d incarnate.
• Messianic ruler to die for sins.
• Belief in the Messianic ruler (and his death/resurrection) needed to get atonement for sins.
• Messianic ruler to come twice, after many hundreds of years.

But remember they all have to appear in a single passage, just as I showed for my POV.

All others need to show 3 passages. Smile (Sorry Moishe is special here, and I have to give him a break Smile )
#4
RebMoshe,
The following can be futher explained after you say you don't understand. It is all here and more. You can not know the Messiah unless His Father reveal Him too you. The one Place was where Daniel was with his God! THIS IS YESHUA!

Ne:2:11: So I came to Jerusalem, and was there three days.
Ne:2:12: And I arose in the night, I and some few men with me; neither told I any man what my God had put in my heart to do at Jerusalem: neither was there any beast with me, save the beast that I rode upon.
Ne:2:13: And I went out by night by the gate of the valley, even before the dragon well, and to the dung port, and viewed the walls of Jerusalem, which were broken down, and the gates thereof were consumed with fire.
Ne:2:14: Then I went on to the gate of the fountain, and to the king's pool: but there was no place for the beast that was under me to pass.
Ne:2:15: Then went I up in the night by the brook, and viewed the wall, and turned back, and entered by the gate of the valley, and so returned.
Ne:2:16: And the rulers knew not whither I went, or what I did; neither had I as yet told it to the Jews, nor to the priests, nor to the nobles, nor to the rulers, nor to the rest that did the work.
Ne:2:17: Then said I unto them, Ye see the distress that we are in, how Jerusalem lieth waste, and the gates thereof are burned with fire: come, and let us build up the wall of Jerusalem, that we be no more a reproach.
Ne:2:18: Then I told them of the hand of my God which was good upon me; as also the king's words that he had spoken unto me. And they said, Let us rise up and build. So they strengthened their hands for this good work.
Ne:2:19: But when Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arabian, heard it, they laughed us to scorn, and despised us, and said, What is this thing that ye do? will ye rebel against the king?
Ne:2:20: Then answered I them, and said unto them, The God of heaven, he will prosper us; therefore we his servants will arise and build: but ye have no portion, nor right, nor memorial, in Jerusalem.
#5
Tanachreader Wrote:RebMoshe,
The following can be futher explained after you say you don't understand. It is all here and more. You can not know the Messiah unless His Father reveal Him too you. The one Place was where Daniel was with his God! THIS IS YESHUA!

I have posted prophecies that do not need to be explained.

I do not see in this any of the things we are looking for. Please, let's keep focussed on the issue.
#6
Take it from the beginning. God said that in the day that you eat of the fruit, you will die. Why didn't they die? Ok, so they died spiritually. They are still sinners before a holy God. How can you explain the existence of sinners in the sight of a righteous God? How can you explain the existence of sinners within a holy and righteous God?

The answer is in the provision. The answer is in the provision of the seed of the woman. From the very time (and even before) sin entered into God's perfect Creation, there was the provision of the seed of the woman. That's means that God's Creation is still perfect because of the perfect provision for Adam and Eve's sin that was already built into man by way of the seed of the woman.

This is an awesome thing! It means that someone born of a woman would crush the very head of the very serpent that tempted Adam and Eve.

Right there, RebMoshe, is the first promise of Messiah in Torah. What do we know about Messiah from this first promise? We know that He will be born of a woman and He will crush the serpent's head.

That is the first word of Messiah. It came as soon as man sinned.

The rest is His Story! Every promise of Messiah after that builds on this first promise of the perfect provision of Messiah for our sins.

It goes on... Abraham said that the Lord will provide for Himself the Lamb so it was later said that in the Mount of the Lord, it will be provided.

There are other things... No one can ever see God. However, they could see Messiah and they called Him God. Jacob wanted to know His name. He did not say. Moses also asked His name and He said that His name is I AM. The only way for us mortal men to see God is to see Messiah and they saw Him many times and lived to speak of it.

Moses said to follow and listen only to the Lord God. Then he turned around and said that one from among the children of Israel would be born and that we should listen to Him as we should listen to God. Well actually God said that. Now there is a big difference between listening to men and listening to God. He said that we should listen to Him as God.

Micah 5:2 speaks of a ruler of Israel born in Bethlehem who's days are from the days of eternity. That sounds a lot like what we have been hearing so far. Two points establish a line and three points a plane. If you want 3D, read Isaiah.

Isaiah speaks of the arm of the Lord growing up before Him and taking our sins on Himself. It speaks of taking on Himself what Israel deserved. It speaks of Him being cut off and being raised up again.

Torah and the rest of Scripture is one true word. It cannot be separated into pieces nor diminished in any way. If you believe Torah, you have to believe the whole thing, not bits and pieces.

Every prophesy of Messiah is first linked to every other prophecy that was ever said before. From the very first prophecy, we know that He is born of a woman. We don't even need Isaiah to tell us that. Moses said that He would be an Israelite even from the tribe of Judah. The prophecies say that Messiah (the seed of the woman, the I AM, the ruler born from the days of eternity) King Messiah would be a Jew.

Y'shua was born of the tribe of Judah and of the house of David. Y'shua has royal blood and by addoption or transfer of some kind is even rightly entitled to be King of Israel as I understand it. That is amazing in and of itself. Add to that the fact that nobody else could ever be King Messiah Y'shua fulfilling all of the prophecies.

Y'shua is Messiah!

Shalom from the King of Shalom! After the order of Melchizedek, Prophet Priest and King with a genuine right to be King of Israel.
#7
RebMoshe Wrote:I would like to pose a challenge to the Christians here, and show that I can answer it for the Jewish side.

Please show me at least 3 passages in the Tenach where the following Christian beliefs can be found IN ONE PLACE:

• Messianic ruler to be born of a virgin.
• Messianic ruler to be G-d incarnate.
• Messianic ruler to die for sins.
• Belief in the Messianic ruler (and his death/resurrection) needed to get atonement for sins.
• Messianic ruler to come twice, after many hundreds of years.

Now I will provide at least three passages where the following End Times beliefs of Judaism occur:

1. End of Exile
2. World peace
3. A King of David's line leading
4. Israel G-d's people

Isaiah 11:1-16
Jeremiah 30:1-25
Ezekiel 37:21-28

I could, of course, add many more passages, but let me only list 5 more that are similar to the above 3:
Deut. 30:1-10
Isaiah 2:2-4
Ezekiel 34:20-31
Ezekiel 36:22-38
Jeremiah 23:5-8

As I said, I have limited these. Where the Jewish view is clear, repeated constantly in the prophets, we do not find the same with the Christian view. There is lack of clarity, and no consistancy. Even if we allow that prophecies that are not germain to this issue (like Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9) are allowed, they do not cooberate the other ones in any clear manner. The ones I have mentioned constantly reference the end times and give the same general picture again and again. Any objective person comparign the facts, will obviosly be in the position of either rejectign Jesus, or rejecting the word of G-d.

Is the Tenach one place or many places?

God has one place, where He is. The Tenach is a very small item in God's place, albeit an extrordinarily important item. God's place is everywhere. When Jonah was dead and in hell God was able to hear Him. ( Jonah 2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. 7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.) David knew He could not escape the presence of God. (Psalm 139: 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;)

As a friend of mine says God has a plan. It is Plan A. There is no plan B. Be sure you find out what God says about plan A. Not what I say, or what Jews for Jesus says, nor what the Pope, nor the Rabbi says. Find out what God says.

Abraham believed God and God reckoned it to him for righteousness. By any and all means: believe God. First last and always. He spoke to Abraham, and Moses and Jeremiah, He loves you and will speak to YOU too !!!
#8
I have replied 'arguments seperatly because they have nothign to do with the 'challenge.'


Take it from the beginning. God said that in the day that you eat of the fruit, you will die. Why didn't they die? Ok, so they died spiritually. They are still sinners before a holy God. How can you explain the existence of sinners in the sight of a righteous God? How can you explain the existence of sinners within a holy and righteous God?


?? How about repentant sinners? Did you nto read that G-d dwells amonst us even if we are sinners?

Right there, RebMoshe, is the first promise of Messiah in Torah. What do we know about Messiah from this first promise? We know that He will be born of a woman and He will crush the serpent's head.

I was born from a women also so? As to crushing heads of serpent's lots of peopel who have mothers do that. You have a very nice imagination.
#9
RebMoshe Wrote:?? How about repentant sinners? Did you nto read that G-d dwells amonst us even if we are sinners?
WHO ARE REPENTED SINNERS!
Reject the Son of God and you will die with you sins.
De:18:19: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
They feared they would die if they heard God's voice but what they should now understand that if they hear and did not listen to God's Son and obey they stiil and will surely die without God. Yeshua spoke of the above passage when He said:
Joh:12:48: He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh:12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh:12:50: And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
------------
Also that serpent is that fallen Cherub called satan. If your a type of Sadducee you won't believe he exits.
Satan

adversary; accuser. When used as a proper name, the Hebrew word
so rendered has the article "the adversary" (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7).
In the New Testament it is used as interchangeable with
Diabolos, or the devil, and is so used more than thirty times.
  He is also called "the dragon," "the old serpent" (Rev. 12:9;
20:2); "the prince of this world" (John 12:31; 14:30); "the
prince of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:2); "the god of this
world" (2 Cor. 4:4); "the spirit that now worketh in the
children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). The distinct personality
of Satan and his activity among men are thus obviously
recognized. He tempted our Lord in the wilderness (Matt.
4:1-11). He is "Beelzebub, the prince of the devils" (12:24). He
is "the constant enemy of God, of Christ, of the divine kingdom,
of the followers of Christ, and of all truth; full of falsehood
and all malice, and exciting and seducing to evil in every
possible way." His power is very great in the world. He is a
"roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet. 5:8). Men are
said to be "taken captive by him" (2 Tim. 2:26). Christians are
warned against his "devices" (2 Cor. 2:11), and called on to
"resist" him (James 4:7). Christ redeems his people from "him
that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14).
Satan has the "power of death," not as lord, but simply as
executioner.
#10
lambsev Wrote:As a friend of mine says God has a plan. It is Plan A. There is no plan B. Be sure you find out what God says about plan A. Not what I say, or what Jews for Jesus says, nor what the Pope, nor the Rabbi says. Find out what God says.

I agree that we need to find out what G-d wants. I would think that the first place is in Tenach (what some called the Old Testament.) I think my challenge was a start. I have posted a number of verses from there which are clearly what G-d wants, and paint a clear, repetitive and consistant picture. They all say the same things with just slightly different wording. It's something you can 'take to the bank'. Why should it be so hard for Christians to do the same thing?


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