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Legalism?
#1
Why do Christians, Hebrew-Christians or Jews for Jesus believe that Judaism, as represented by Jews that follow the commands, think that it is a legalistic religion, without feeling, love and devotion to G-d?

Consider that Deut 6:5 says to Love G-d (a command), that the Mishnah (the Legal Oral Code) is replete with exhortations to serve G-d with love, devotion and feeling? Consider that an entire tract (Avos) deals with inter-personal relationships and developing internal, emotional and heart-to-heart skills with G-d.  Consider that Judaism follows the teachings of Proverbs and Psalms, both of which are very devoted to forming a personal connection with G-d.

Consider that Judaism has a number of books developing the idea of focusing our attention on internal love and connection - The Path of the Just, The Ways of the Righteous and the Duties of the Heart?

Something to think about!

Danny.

#2
I believe that those in Judaism do feel love and devotion however they claim to do so.  I also believe that those who believe in a works righteousness interpretation of Christianity also feel love and devotion however they claim to do so.  I would not presume to know what a person actually feels.

I think the thrust of the claim of legalism is along the lines of the definition which I put here below:

1. strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, esp. to the letter rather than the spirit.  
2. Theology. a. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.  
b. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

The problem that the Judaism discussed here presents, or any other religion that denies a need for Jesus Christ, is not a lack of feeling but taking the focus off the character of God and putting it on man's character, which is usually judged acceptable according to the performance of actions (or assumption of attitudes) interpreted as necessary to do.

The character of God however requires more than well meaning diligence or loving devotional activity on the part of the criminal.  It requires full payment; it actually requires death.  The eternal holiness of God requires eternal death for the offender.

Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God; His death was payment in full.  His death paid the penalty of sin.  Those who trust Christ as their sin-bearer receive the gift of eternal life, not the penalty of eternal death.

God said in the Garden, don't eat of this tree, or you will surely die.  They ate, God judged, and God slew an animal and clothed them with the skins; the fig leaves were not sufficient.

We are commanded to love God.  It matters how we live.  There are consequences for sinning, sometimes it results in death.  But if a sinner cleanses his way (by taking heed according to God's Word), God says that one will live.

But payment for sin?  Only Christ can pay that, and it is given to man once to die, and after that the judgment.  If Christ is not your sin-bearer, you must bear your sin, for all eternity.

Trust Christ today.
#3
Dannyil Wrote:Why do Christians, Hebrew-Christians or Jews for Jesus believe that Judaism, as represented by Jews that follow the commands, think that it is a legalistic religion, without feeling, love and devotion to G-d?
Because they read the Israeli newspapers?
#4
Quote:Why do Christians, Hebrew-Christians or Jews for Jesus believe that Judaism, as represented by Jews that follow the commands, think that it is a legalistic religion, without feeling, love and devotion to G-d?

FIRST- Good to see you back Dannyil, I mean that. I have thought of you often.

To address the question: I actually don't see it that way. Just like we are supposed to live according to our faith, it is an act of love that we obey. I think that is the same for you. It is an act of love and worship.

And, maybe, most importantly (for both of us), submitting to His authority, showing that we are "not our own bosses"...does that make sense?
#5
Legalism is a curse to both Jusaism and Christianity..
#6
Baptistic Wrote:1. strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, esp. to the letter rather than the spirit.  

Question:  
You're the worker of a major company that earns billions of dollars a year.

The rules of the company are: That Lunch break is from 1 to 2 pm.  This is company policy, and anyone who is caught disobeying this rule, will be fired, without further warning.  Every employee is told this from the beginning, and its a signed contract.

You decide however, that the spirit of this rule is that employees should be given a chance to break and relax for an hour.  You feel that you don't need it, you work better when everyone else is at lunch.  So you decide that you're going to work from 1 to 2 pm instead.  Now to avoid been seen, you bring your laptop into the lavatory.

One day a co-worker spots you, and you're called in, and you're fired.  You wish to sue the company, because your breach of the law, was in the spirit of the company's work-ethic.

Do you think anyone cares about what you think is 'in the spirit of the rule'?  No.  You broke the law, end of discussion.  You agreed to the terms, you pay the price.

The Torah is an everlasting, unbreakable contractual agreement between the Jewish people and G-d.  There are  defined set of rules and punishments.

Your 'spirit' business is irrelevant to the discussion.  If the law is kept or broken you can have a hundred spiritual epiphanies, that is not the issue.  G-d desires that His law is kept.  Your concept of spirit is nice euphemism for avoiding the issue.
#7
Baptistic Wrote:2. Theology. a. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.  
b. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

I'm not interested in what a couple of Oxford English Professors have decided, based on public opinion what words mean.  I'm interested in what G-d says on the issue.

G-d's requirements are simple, precise and straightforward.  Do what G-d says.  Anyone who says otherwise, is against G-d.

Quote:
The problem that the Judaism discussed here presents, or any other religion that denies a need for Jesus Christ, is not a lack of feeling but taking the focus off the character of God and putting it on man's character, which is usually judged acceptable according to the performance of actions (or assumption of attitudes) interpreted as necessary to do.

Again....Judaism has been around for a lot longer than Jesus.  And you know what, G-d was very happy with it before then.

The facts are that G-d gave a Torah to the Jewish people to follow and obey.  Your statements are contrary to that.  QED you're against G-d.  

(Cf. Deut 30:11-15)

#8
Quote:The character of God however requires more than well meaning diligence or loving devotional activity on the part of the criminal.  

Question:

A murderer of say 30 people comes on the stand, and he looks like a clean-shaving caring, loving person.  In fact, just before he enters the court, he was handing out little candies to children, and saying how sad he is that teachers are not paid more, and that when he gets out of prison, he wants to do more for the community.

The psychological profile of this guy makes him out to be nicer than your own father.  And all the psychologists from this side of the Atlantic tell the court that this guy is not only NOT psychotic, but that, if he wasn't a murderer, he would be the the role-model for every father out there.

Now there are several eye-witnesses to the murder, there is close-circuit tv of the incident. They have the murder weapon with his finger prints, and he claims he is guilty.  What more do you want?  

Now you can judge the guy all you like as a nice well-meaning individual.  the facts are that he murdered.  He should be locked up.

The reverse is also true.  A guy, who is a beggar (and with zero psychological profile - they interview him, and the psychologists tell us that if he was given a gun he would be the next Hitler) but has no charges against him, cannot be arrested for murder.  Why not?  according to you, its all about character profile.

G-d has decided that actions - the commandments, is what counts.

Forget about Paul's doctrine for a second.  G-d says do the commandments, they're easy and within everyone's capability.  Enough said.  G-d said it. (Deut 30:11-25)

#9
Baptistic Wrote:It requires full payment; it actually requires death.  The eternal holiness of God requires eternal death for the offender.

This you have to prove.  But again, how is this relevant to the discussion?

Quote:Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God;

Remember, this is your assumption.  Judaism doesn't accept this as a premise.

Nonetheless, James agrees with me: James 2:17-end tells us that faith without works is dead.  The logical implication is that when Jesus says to follow what the Rabbis say (Matthew 23:2), because they are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:17-21), means that if its all true, then their faith and their statements are to be followed.  Jesus is asked: "what is the greatest Commandment" (Matthew 22:36), and he responds (with a misquote), but he doesn't say: "guys you know what you don't need to follow commandments no more...., I'm going to die and everyone will be righteous....The implication is that everyone has to follow G-d's rules and laws.  Now Jesus goes on to tell us that really the Rabbis are hypocrites (Matthew 23).

I ask you a most basic question.  Jesus is contradicting himself.  If you tell me that faith is nothing without deeds, and the logical conclusion is that deeds are everything.  That means that Jesus' is saying that deeds determine faith.  Now Jesus tells us that the Rabbis are hypocrites - meaning they have no faith.  Yet, Jesus tells us that they are at the seat of Moses, that do as they say not as they do, and Jesus himself tells us that we should all follow the greatest of commandments.  Yet, The Rabbis have not faith according to the NT, - the implication their actions and statements are worthless, and yet Jesus tells us the opposite, that their actions are worthless, but their statements are to be followed.

I posit that this conundrum involves a simple resolution.  You have to follow what G-d says.  Simple, straightforward.  If you're doing what G-d says: i.e. following each and every commandment as Matthew 5 and James 2 spell out.  Then, the next level is faith.  The synoptics and early understanding of Jesus is this level.  But Paul has rejected this philosophy, and really told Christians that you need not follow the law, but simply believe, as is expressed in John.

Paul rejects this notion.  But you, and every other Christian has to understand this.

#10
Quote:His death was payment in full.  His death paid the penalty of sin.  Those who trust Christ as their sin-bearer receive the gift of eternal life, not the penalty of eternal death.

Please provide proper citation.

Quote:God said in the Garden, don't eat of this tree, or you will surely die.  They ate, God judged, and God slew an animal and clothed them with the skins; the fig leaves were not sufficient.

You're making this all up.  Where does it say this in the text.

Quote:We are commanded to love God.  It matters how we live.  There are consequences for sinning, sometimes it results in death.  But if a sinner cleanses his way (by taking heed according to God's Word), God says that one will live.

Yeah, and your philosophy tells us that mass-murderers should walk the streets, and beggars and regular people should be put behind bars.

Quote:But payment for sin?  Only Christ can pay that, and it is given to man once to die, and after that the judgment.  If Christ is not your sin-bearer, you must bear your sin, for all eternity.

Lets play this out.   In the Holocaust at least 2-3 million Jewish children were murdered at the hands of the Nazis.  Now these children entered into the gas chambers as Jews.  No-one at the last moment converted or baptized them.  They died as believing in G-d, and as Jews.

The Nazis on the other hand, were for the most part Christian.  Those that weren't (for example Himmler, Striecher, Goebbels), converted on the day of the death.  Lets assume for argument sake that they were sincere, and that the psychological profile that would have been done, would come out that they were sincere.

According to you, and John 14:6, and John 3:16, those slain children could be in hell, but those Nazi murderers, could be enjoying eternal bliss in heaven, regardless of the atrocities perpetuated.

Now I ask you a simple question.  Is this the character of a merciful, loving and all-powerful G-d, or not, now be honest here?

Danny.


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