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Rebellion in Shemayim:  Not possible
#1
The notion of angels in Shemayim (heaven) rebelling against G-d is a preposterous one.  This teaching is central to almost all Christian denominations.

The problem here is that angels were not created with free will, only man was.  Therefore, Lucifer or any other angel is not capable of rebellion.  Rather, G-d created the evil inclination so that man would have to elect to do good.
#2
Shlomo, this teaching that angelic beings are like robots without personal choice does not come from the Tanach, but from other traditions.  You have two choices, the traditional, rabbinical interpretation of the Tanach or the New Testament interpretation of the Tanach.  The New Testament is only preposterous to one who completely accepts the teachings of all the rabbis, including men like Moses Maimonides.  It is not preposterous when compared to the Tanach, which is the inspired word of G-d.  The real question is whether the rabbinical teachings or the New Testament fit the Tanach better.
#3
ThomasDGW Wrote:Shlomo, this teaching that angelic beings are like robots without personal choice does not come from the Tanach, but from other traditions.  You have two choices, the traditional, rabbinical interpretation of the Tanach or the New Testament interpretation of the Tanach.  The New Testament is only preposterous to one who completely accepts the teachings of all the rabbis, including men like Moses Maimonides.  It is not preposterous when compared to the Tanach, which is the inspired word of G-d.  The real question is whether the rabbinical teachings or the New Testament fit the Tanach better.
Even if an angel were inclined to do this, he would know better!  Angels are fully cognizant of G-d’s power.  Simply put, Lucifer could not be “that stupid!”  Free will or not, angels are intellectually superior to man!
#4
ThomasDGW Wrote:Shlomo, this teaching that angelic beings are like robots without personal choice does not come from the Tanach, but from other traditions.  You have two choices, the traditional, rabbinical interpretation of the Tanach or the New Testament interpretation of the Tanach.  The New Testament is only preposterous to one who completely accepts the teachings of all the rabbis, including men like Moses Maimonides.  It is not preposterous when compared to the Tanach, which is the inspired word of G-d.  The real question is whether the rabbinical teachings or the New Testament fit the Tanach better.

The Rabbinical teachings of angels does fit the Torah better.....The new testaments teaching of angels....is there to give itself credibility, to me it kind of only suits itself
#5
I remind you of Ezekiel 28:12-16.  Rashi tried to make this into a man, resorting to interpreting "In Eden, the garden of God you were" as "You enjoy yourself as if you were dwelling in Eden, the garden of God," but it is an angelic being.  The New Testament fits this as written.  Rashi does not.

If intelligence were a guarantee of not rebelling against G-d, then men are not that stupid either.  But somehow, stupid rebellion happens.  You argument is far from conclusive.
#6
Shlomo,

You are mistaken.  It is not a central teaching in the mainstream churches.  The central teaching is Jesus' death and resurrection.  Very rarely is the subject of Satan/Lucifer/demons brought up unless the scriptures being taught dictate otherwise.  More often than not, we are taught to look to ourselves (the flesh) for blame when we sin and not to be so quick to blame it on the evil spirits.  But the concept of the fall of Lucifer/Satan is rarely visited upon.

Raising a topic such as this is nothing more than a distraction and I view it as being rebellious just for the sake of being rebellious.  Surely you have legitimate reasons for rejecting Jesus without having to resort to a rather insignificant doctrine such as this topic.
#7
shlomo Wrote:
ThomasDGW Wrote:Shlomo, this teaching that angelic beings are like robots without personal choice does not come from the Tanach, but from other traditions.  You have two choices, the traditional, rabbinical interpretation of the Tanach or the New Testament interpretation of the Tanach.  The New Testament is only preposterous to one who completely accepts the teachings of all the rabbis, including men like Moses Maimonides.  It is not preposterous when compared to the Tanach, which is the inspired word of G-d.  The real question is whether the rabbinical teachings or the New Testament fit the Tanach better.
Even if an angel were inclined to do this, he would know better!  Angels are fully cognizant of G-d’s power.  Simply put, Lucifer could not be “that stupid!”  Free will or not, angels are intellectually superior to man!


how do explain in jude about the angels that left there inhabitation? and had fallen to lust?
#8
Quote:The problem here is that angels were not created with free will, only man was.

Explain Nephilim/N'filim Gen 6:4 please.
#9
To Shlomo-

I am privilaged to answer one of God's chosen people on this topic.

Let me ask you a question.  Where is heaven?  

Pentecostals and Missiologists and other Christians interested in what is called spiritual warfare might like to wrestle with this question because it is doctrinal.

In Isaiah 13:13-14 a king, presumably posessed by the devil, says "I will" five times, one of the times indicateing he wanted to go above God in heaven.  So, we have here at least a satanical or diabolically ambitious human.

Second, if you think about the way antisemitism pops up after thousands of years or the way uncleaness has a pattern in the lives of those in bondage it gives you the indication that ageless spirits are involved.  (I think in folk Judasims they have debook or some kind of ghosts, you tell me, but not actually fallen angels).

So, not being able to solve this problem in five minutes I thank you shlomo for outlineing the differences between Judaism and Christianity in a way that I hadn't thought of before.

But before I go I will throw out one last thing.  I asked where it heaven.  Perhaps the problem with your original assumption is that heaven is  a different dimension and not a place in the universe.  As one Messianic Rabbi pointed out heaven is everywhere for the believer but nowhere for the atheist.

Mt 6:10, Jesus says "thy kingdom come... on earth as it is in heaven."
#10
ThomasDGW Wrote:how do explain in jude about the angels that left there inhabitation? and had fallen to lust?
I don't!  Jude is NT, thus it is not Tannach.  Even if the NT were valid, it would not be relevant since your objective is to prove NT (it cannot self-validate in such a circular way).  


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