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In the body of Christ no Hanukkah?
#21
SMR, I am going to continue thought on this:

Quote:And it isn't even that traditions shouldn't be followed...the point is they are NOT Torah.

It's one thing for me and you, in 2009, living in a non-Torah legal system, to speculate on what is Torah and what isn't...but go back in time, when it was literally a matter of life and death. Then it becomes supremely important to really know what is infraction (worthy of the death penalty, or being cut off from society, etc) in God's eyes, according to His word, and what is added by others.

Then, Sabbath Law (beard hairs, lights, fires, carrying, steps, etc)  become not "just Jewish culture" (not to minimize that, I understand the sincerity/devotion) but they become something to really WORRY about. The difference in telling your 13 year old "Don't do that, it's breaking Shabbat, we want to honor God!"...and "DON'T DO THAT! DID ANYONE SEE YOU? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES!?"





#22
Ah, shalom ThomasDGW

Sorry now I read it over I understand you better...

I did put it as a question, because so many Christians I heard claiming that a Jew Nor Christian should excist in ''the Body of Christ''. Or people claim also to be Family of Abraham and all kind off mixtures...
So it is those fague paraphrases I quote or retry to question.

So Jesus doesn't go as far as Paul sometimes in quotations. But I question myself how Paul could have celebrated Hannukah. Of course he was allowed to, but what did he had in mind? Or what do JFJ's understand of the difference between Jewish or Greek culture, and what do they do with it?

I liked your explaination by the way.
About Tzitzit: I can interpret it in 20 ways, so I don't know exactly wich one you mean? HaShem ordered the Jews to do it. (the way of how long, the windings might be tradition of Moshe and later scolars). It's not a Greek tradition, so partly I don't see the connection. According to most Rabbi's Bnei-Noach people are allowed to do some way of Tzitzit, as long as it doesn't look the same (for different reasons).
non-Jews can't claim that it is commanded to them. At the other hand it never says it's forbidden for them.
the ChristianTestament doesn't make a quote as far as I know againtst Tzitzit, nor any Law I know about it. (there is also no LAW of Tzitzit being to long I think, and the commentary of Jesus doesn't have to be a new Law, it doesn't say that.) There is a Law against Tzitzit being to Short in the Oral Law.
#23
ThomasDGW

Quote:You should be talking about two elements, because the Greek word Eros is not found in the New Testament.  The fact that the New Testament used two words while not using the third tells me that, whatever philosophy is behind the Greek language, it was filtered by the New Testament writers, not adopted  I do not know Hebrew so I cannot comment on the Hebrew words for love, but I don't see what fault a Hebrew could find in distinguishing between friendly love and committed love.

I'm sorry but I don't see it like that. I understand that ''translation'' was needed and is always a filter. At 1 hand it's not shure if Eros was filtered out. And a lot of Rabbi's wrote about that Eros might even be closer to the way God loves the people than the other 2 ways that might be included.

god is ''a jaelous god'' is also included in the Christian Testament: meaning not only friendly... but maybe even he is jealous if his Bride does other things, not only jealous but also possessive on a certain level, and longing etc.

And even if you adopt only 2, the way of unselfish love how it is explained by the Church/Greeks is hard to explain in Hebrew. O.k. it's hard to translate. But even if you use 2 terms, it doesn't come close to maybe even Jesus way of thinking about Love.
It's off course necessary to explain Love in English, Greek and Chinese terms. And I can't expect all Christians to understand Hebrew thinking. But some Christians should understand that they speek in Chinese or Greek terminology to me if they speak. So I'm not going to adapt my thinking.

A God and Godess (Mary? Holy Ghost) whe get a Son...  well o.k. that is a trinity or tradition itself. The main Greek thing I never understand is: ''How can a son of God have a better approach/position etc. than the former Gods ?'' For me in that sence the concept is non-Jewish so Greek.
I still might like Greeks Christians as friends, but I don't take over culture that is not intended according to me.

Shalom
#24
ThomasDGW

I agree that those Commune-ideas only work on a basis of trust and love. And I always thought that besides on a basis of free will that it was somehow commanded in the idea that the time is near, let's share everything... but I have to look for it in the Christian Testament...

Israeli's should also not forget that most of the first Kibbutzim where by Russian Christians in the North of Israel in the late 1800's. So Kibbutz is not so much a Jewish or Israeli concept either (mainly not wrong maybe).

About Priest you might be right in a lot of ways. God's idea of who where allowed to be priest depended on different things. And in the future it might be different. Besides that there are some non-Jewish Priests teaching in Tenach (like Jethro,Melchizedek). But didn't do service in the Temple.

I have to read the teksts. But I hold for now, that I will wait till the new Temple or new Jerusalem is there to see the function of Priests comming back.

Thanks.
#25
I have to return to this:
Quote:So WHAT is Hanukkah. What do we celebrate: The war on the Greeks we did win, we got our Temple, Religious Purity and Culture Back...

When did Judaism become all about "the culture" instead of the God whom established that culture.

When did it become "we did it" instead of God did it?

In other words, where is the zealousness for God instead of "just" Judaism as a culture?

What was/is the purpose of His Nation, Israel?

Very honest questions.
#26
Ripley

I'm sorry but I never sayd ''instead''. So how do you come to this idea?

If there is mannah falling down from the heavens, and The Almighty asks us to pick it up, in a certain amount. If I take the right amount It's my bread, not from somebody else... I can say a blessing on the bread The Almighty gave me.   So a lot of times I can use the word ''me'' or ''I'' without denying that it's all given by Him, and that we eat in his honour and thank Him for it. I don't see the contradiction.

The Almighty gave us a Jewish culture and not a Greek one. So there might!! be a difference.
#27
"The main Greek thing I never understand is: ''How can a son of God have a better approach/position etc. than the former Gods ?''"

This concept is foreign to me also.  The New Testament teaches that the Father is greater than the Son (John 14:28).  Jesus did not come to do what the Father could not do, but to culminate the plan which the Father had from the beginning.  The Father from the beginning did everything through the Son.  The one we now know as the Son is present from the first chapter of Genesis as the Word who said, Let there be light" and through the rest of the Tanach as the Word of the Lord and the Angel of the Lord.  In all cases, the Word/Son was, is, and always will be subservient to the Father.
#28
Yetzirah~
Quote:I'm sorry but I never sayd ''instead''. So how do you come to this idea?

I wasn't directing this to you only, even though I quoted you.

What I was really questioning was the idea that "God speaks to different peoples (nations) in different ways"...

I come from a "He only revealed Himself to and through Israel" point of view. Not Buddists, not Hindis, not Darwinists, not my ancestors: Celts, just Israel/Jews.

So, I guess what I was saying was that the unique thing about Israel is their long and intimate relationship with YHWH, that no other "culture" can claim.

Does that make sense?

#29
Thanks, both Ripley's and ThomasDGW

This makes things more clair...

Although I don't see specifically in every WORD and Angel, a Son etc. but o.k. there are posibilities.
#30
HaRav Yisroel ben Avrohom Wrote:As a point of information about the Oral Torah, what we have as written (i.e. the Talmud) is not the whole Oral Torah, merely notes on what it contains.

It has always been prohibited to write down the Oral Torah (I'm not sure what the source for the prohibition is).

The cohanim ("chazal") also prohibited other things that the God of Israel either allegedly or actually said and allowed or required. See how Classical Jewish Tradition fulfilled Isaiah 29:13-14.


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