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In the body of Christ no Hanukkah?
#31
"Although I don't see specifically in every WORD and Angel, a Son etc."

I agree that every instance of word or angel is not a reference to this person whom I believe became the Son, Jesus Christ.  However, there are a number of specific references to the word, such as Psalm 107:20 "He sent His word and healed them, and extricated them from their pit." and to an Angel of the Lord, such as Genesis 16:10: "And the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your seed, and it will not be counted for abundance.", or Exodus 23: " 20. Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
21. Beware of him and obey him; do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for My Name is within him.
22. For if you hearken to his voice and do all that I say, I will hate your enemies and oppress your adversaries.
23. For My angel will go before you, and bring you to the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, and I will destroy them."

that are more than ordinary angels or vibrations of a vocalized communication.  What kind of angel has the ability to multiply seed, has the Name within him, or has the authority to not forgive transgressions?  The New Testament teaches that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." (John 1:14)
#32
ThomasDGW

Thanks, I think vers 21 is maybe the strongest claim (if it stands by itself).
All the others??? I don't know, I don't see it. Besides that most Angels have the Name of The Almighty in them, like EL in Gabriel...  And most of them have more then communicative ''powers''. Also Jacob is fighting with an Angel/God, so you mean that was Jesus too??? Jesus who did hurt Jacobs leg?

It sounds nice, but the claim that you have to read Jesus in all kind of Angels etc. is a Christian claim.
And Christianity excists of a lot of denominations...
Some might say to me: ''Jesus loves you'' (how does he know that?), or that the with the Christian God there is always room for forgiveness.
But according to you in verse 21, the Messiah seems not so Christian in that sence? That he sometimes doesn't forgive?
A lot of Christians might make out of vers 21: ''The Jews transgress for they don't obey him, we are the real obeyers according to ourselves so we are the good ones.''
Still vers 21 sounds more like the Real Almighty, for He is LovingKindness and Judgement.

Thanks for the reply !!
#33
Thomas,

Are you saying that you believe jc to be an "angel" as well as all of the other titles given to him?

I'm just asking because I'm still learning the xtian point of view and have not heard that before.
#34
Yetzirah, A whole lot of men and angels have the word El in their name, but having the word God in their name doesn't equate to having His NAME within THEM.  If that were true, then anyone who had El in their name would have to have people beware and obey all of them.  It is true that other angels like Gabriel have authority to back up their commands with divinely appointed consequences, but forgiveness is the domain of God Himself alone.

"the Messiah seems not so Christian in that sence? That he sometimes doesn't forgive?"

Jesus certainly does NOT teach unconditional forgiveness.  That is the warning in Jesus' sermon on the mount in Matthew 6:15.  Then when Jesus comes back with vengeance, in Revelation 19, he looks even more like this Angel of Exodus.  I also have problems with a lot "pop Christianity" that many Christian evangelists present.  That is why my focus is on what the New Testament actually teaches.

"Also Jacob is fighting with an Angel/God, so you mean that was Jesus too??? Jesus who did hurt Jacobs leg?"

Yes, that is exactly what I believe.  He did not get the name Jesus until he was born of Mary.  However, to make myself clear, this person called Jesus according to Gabriel's instructions to Mary and Joseph, the step-father, was also one of the three "men" who appeared to Abraham, the Angel who appeared to Hagar, the Angel/man/God who wrestled with Jacob, the God of Israel whom the elders of Israel saw in Exodus 24, the Angel of Ha Shem who appeared to Manoah, and the one whom Isaiah saw high and lifted up on his throne.  In the language of the New Testament, he is the express image of the invisible God, the Word by whom God made the world.  If you carefully read the New Testament record of this Jesus, you will recognize that this man Jesus has the same personality characteristics as Ha Shem of the Tanach.
#35
Cohanim is a Jew who is in direct patrilineal descent from the Biblical Aaron, older brother of Moses, with an honored status in Judaism. Another term for the descendants of Aaron is the Aaronites or Aaronids. That's according to what I have read from one of my references.


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#36
Did you know that you can buy one of the coolest looking menorahs from JFJ? You can and for a reasonable price considering the significance of the item. I am so excited to get mine and use it for Hanukkah. I have already started buying some items for gift exchanges too. I plan on using a manger in place of a tree for my Christmas gifts this year and celebrate the best day of the year...the birth of Jesus. Have a good day and nice Thanksgiving too.
#37
I know that christians don't believe Jesus was born on Christmas but do you think He could of been conceived on Hanukkah?
What made you ask this in the first place? :think:

Thanks.
#38
HOPE7

Ah, no Tree, that's better for nature. And a manger, than the gifts might be: ''Gold, Incense and Myrhh''? Luckely the tradition doesn't tell us how much... But it's always nice to have...

Anyway, just like the gifts (what is just a nice idea) from Sinterklaas (a Dutch party on the 5th of December) was moved forward in the states to the 25th, so also nowadays some people give gifts on Hanukkah. But among Jewish people realy some, actually I think I never met one myself... But anyway mixing of cultures happens, and by that festivals get different and more meanings. Not much to do with the topic.
Well I hope you think of the Lights/Oil miracle in the Temple, and Jesus might have lid the candles too, I hope not the first year after he was born... :lol: or that might have been a forgotten miracle?
#39
jamesteens Wrote:I know that christians don't believe Jesus was born on Christmas but do you think He could of been conceived on Hanukkah?
What made you ask this in the first place? :think:

Thanks.


I dont know the exact date. Im sure the Jewish community does or might if they investigated it more. It doesnt matter to me that the date is exact or not. Just a day to remember Jesus and the story of His birth.
#40
So I see ''Jews for Jesus'' is not so busy with Hanukkah...

Well, why did the subject turn back to Christmas, or a date of Birth again?
In The Bible is only 1 day of birth, that is the one of Pharao. In the Christian Testament, is 1 day of birth: Herod.

During Hanukkah, we celebrate that Jews got their Temple and most Laws back.
No more surpression, of not being allowed to celebrate Shabbath and New Moon.
No more surpression of Circumcision, or reading of THE WORD.

Well Paul grew up in a Greek and Celtic world mainly, o.k. he also had contacts with Romans and Jews. But The Greeks where universalists, (maybe call them globalists), They kept the Temple where it was, but made all the ''inside stuff'' empty or impure. So also Jewish souls should be no different than from Greek souls, a personal covenant as a nation by forbidding circumcision was also 1 rule to make everybody universal...

So why did a Greekminded person like Paul, go further than Jesus?
And why are Jews for Jesus celebrating Birthdays? While they might forget about by God instituted startingpoints of the Months?
Do Jews for Jesus still live in a half-Greek world, by celebrating the Solar-calender? and Claiming like Pauls Greek tradition that there is not difference between Greek and Jew?
Claiming that a Human, or Humanism is the Word of God, instead of the scripture we got from The Almighty?

I think Hanukkah still stays for a lot of Jews for Jesus-people a misunderstood festivall, for most Christians claim that the Temple is not a building etc, Jews can forget about their tradition and future, because now everybody is one...
But if you See Jesus body, or every body as a ''Temple of the Holy'' spirit... That does not make it right to celebrate or include all kind of pagan festivals into that body. But I still think Hanukkah fits in the Spiritual idea of purifying That Body.


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