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In the body of Christ no Hanukkah?
#1
We Jews celebrate all kind of exiles... via fast-days, Pesach = going out of Egypt, or with Purim = out of Babylon...

But the one with the Greek-Hellenists was different.
We stayed in our country. The Greeks tried to enforce the enlightenment-idea of equality upon us. We shoulnd't be different.
With all kind of agreements with Alexander the Great we where allowed to keep our temple, and for a while not put their Greek statues in our Temple.

Alexander was one of the most friendly dictators for the Jews those days. But it was a dictatorship of equality within the Greek idea of Democracy. Not to much religious items etc.

So WHAT is Hanukkah. What do we celebrate: The war on the Greeks we did win, we got our Temple, Religious Purity and Culture Back...

But was that realy the case? If still Paul and others come allong and claim: ''In the body of Christ (Church etc.), is no difference between Greek or Jew.'' Or even stronger, a Greek or Jew doesn't exist...

(Galatians 3:28 / Colossians 3:11)

So did Paul nor Jesus Celebrated Hanukkah? THE purification from Hellenism. THE survival from a surpressing equality-culture. That we did win the war on the Greeks? That tries to force their way of Democracy etc. on all kind of cultures?
No thanks. Let Our Temple be THE temple. And I will not accept a Christian telling me that his Church or Law should be mine...
I can understand that a Christian sees a Phillipinian Christian equal maybe to a Palestinian Christian or a Communistic Christian.
But I don't have to accept any Greek way of thinking. I still celebrate Pesach, the going out of Egypt, etc.   If The Almighty starts to tell me: ''in Him an Egyptian is equal to a Jew, etc etc.'' it starts to get weird. Or did The Almighte became Hellenistic in Jesus days?
Or does only Paul has this kind of identity-crisis, for he was not 100% Jewish...
Anyway it's thought that Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, but for what then if it is about getting rid of the Greeks...?
#2
Yetzirah~
Quote:So WHAT is Hanukkah. What do we celebrate: The war on the Greeks we did win, we got our Temple, Religious Purity and Culture Back...

Wow! I thought the focus of celebration was about the miracle (oil) that *God* did. That the victory was His.
#3
Ripley thanks

There are all kind off reasons written down why we celebrate the festivall.
Off course most people think about candles and lights during these days.

Off course we can thank HaShem for the victory He gave us, with our blood.
But first off all, Victory from who? Not from the devil, but from Greek (culture, thought, religion).
Secondly it makes clear that HaShem wants us to keep our own culture.

So did Jesus realy celebrate Hanukkah, or was he to enlightened for that: ''no more Temple, etc. But Paul went further than Jesus it seems.
Than we can ask, why is Hellenistic Paul so busy with claiming that there is no Greek and no Jew. Such a statement goes further than ''there is a Greek and Jew, but in Christ we are all one''.

Is it because after the wars, and in Celtic/Roman Turkey, he had to be scared to be to nationalistic? Or did he allready had a Greek mindset of Egalite/Fraternite/Liberte, (from the French, to be equal and brothers).

Is for Messianics, IF they even celebrate it, the message more Greek, then for the Jews:
1. Is the festival a festivall of lights??? to compare it to Christmas. Greekly thinking.
2. Is it a festival of winning a war against the Greeks?
3. Is the oil not anymore neccesary for the body of Christ is the Temple? So what did he rebild? 1 body for all? Greek empire thinking.
4. Did HaShem gave the Jews in 1948 their country back, or Greek thinking after WW-II: Germany, Japan and Israel, should become normal nations among all the others... Why is it than that Arab countries are allowed from the U.N. to have apartheid, and Israel is not allowed to (if it even has)...?

All kind of questions about Hannukah, hope to understand what the Messianic thinkink is on this.
#4
Ripley's,

You stated:"Wow! I thought the focus of celebration was about the miracle (oil) that *God* did. That the victory was His."

SMR:

The "miracle" was much more than the finding of the purified oil that burned for 8 nights. It is a miracle that we were able to drive them out of our Holy Temple that they desecrated with paganism. It is a miracle that we were able to rededicate the Holy Temple. Hashem, with His infinite mercy and grace, knows that we will NEVER stop studying and abiding by His Torah, the Book of Life, no matter what the other nations try to do to us. You are correct. The victory is His! The victory that His Torah is eternal, as He promised!
#5
Dear Searching,

I am brand new to this forum, so please forgive my perhaps simple questions to you.

Why do you call the Torah the “Book of Life”?  Does the Torah state somewhere in it that it is the “Book of Life”?  Does the Torah state somewhere in it that it is ‘eternal’?  If it does, please let me know where it so states such things.  Thank you.
#6
Armand Wrote:Dear Searching,

I am brand new to this forum, so please forgive my perhaps simple questions to you.

Why do you call the Torah the “Book of Life”?  Does the Torah state somewhere in it that it is the “Book of Life”?  Does the Torah state somewhere in it that it is ‘eternal’?  If it does, please let me know where it so states such things.  Thank you.

Armand,

Welcome!

Your question;
"Why do you call the Torah the “Book of Life”?"

SMR:
Although I don't recall (I will search though) where in the Tanach it may say those exact words, I would ask you to read Psalm 19 and 119 in its entirety. It pretty much sums up why it is called the Book of Life. Actually, Torah means instruction. So it is our "instructions" for life.

I just found one! Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp, and the teaching is light, and reproofs of instruction are the way of life;

Your next question;
"Does the Torah state somewhere in it that it is ‘eternal’? "

SMR:
When I have a bit more time I will post some verses. Basically, it is written over and over again all throughout the Tananch.

Here are a few for now;
Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee, for ever.

Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

2 Kings 17:37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which He wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

Psalm 111:7 The works of His hands are truth and justice; all His precepts are sure.
8 They are established for ever and ever, they are done in truth and uprightness.

I hope I have answered your questions to some extent. Thanks for asking!

#7
"So did Paul nor Jesus Celebrated Hanukkah? THE purification from Hellenism."

In John 10:22-23, Jesus was walking in the Temple during the Feast of Dedication in the winter, which must have been referring to Hanukkah.  That is the only reference to Hanukkah that can be found in the New Testament.

"But was that realy the case? If still Paul and others come allong and claim: ''In the body of Christ (Church etc.), is no difference between Greek or Jew.'' Or even stronger, a Greek or Jew doesn't exist..."

Stick with direct quotes instead of misleading paraphrases.  Galatians 3:27-28 states: "For as many as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  There is not Jew or Greek, nor is there slave or freeman, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ."  An explanation of this baptism is in I Corinthians 12:13: "For by one spirit also we were baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freemen.  And all were made to drink into one Spirit."

You can see by these verses, as well as many others, that this is speaking of a spiritual transformation, creating a new spiritual identity from God.  It has nothing to do with saying that a Jew or Greek does not exist in the world or in the meeting of the church, but just says that those distinctions do not exist in Christ, which is a spiritual reality.  It has nothing to do with denying the superiority of Jewish culture over Greek or refraining from celebrating the victory of the Maccabees.

What the New Testament does teach is that a Greek, or whoever, CAN participate in this spiritual transformation and enter into the body of Christ without physically adopting the Jewish culture.  However, those who do so must leave behind certain elements of their physically culture such as philosophical beliefs, fornication, eating blood, and many others.  For brevity, I will not include all of those verses at this time.  The Jew who enters the body of Christ doesn't have to leave behind any cultural practices, EXCEPT those rabbinical practices that were added outside of the Tanach and are contradicted by New Testament teachings.  Men covering their heads while praying and certain prayers and beliefs about the nature of G-d are among those.  The New Testament does NOT condone the practices that were being forced on Jews under the Hellenists.  The New Testament uses the Greek language because of the universality of its message, but does NOT teach a Greek religion.

#8
very well said ThomasDGW
Although I'm not a body of Christ promoter, I understand the idea.

Well I guess Jesus spoke a lot of Aramaic, and some texts of the Christian Testament might have been Aramaic...  And Jesus often doesn't contradict Talmud or Oral Law, just explains one of the traditions within Talmud...

But
If in the Body of Christ people should remove some ''Greek'' philosophical beliefs, fornication, eating blood, and many others.
Then it's neccesary not to devide Love into 3 elements, like the Greeks do, but should people go back to Jesus upbringing, and understand the different Hebrew words for Love???
Should those in the body off Christ, not give away a lot of their possessions (like in NT), and start to live as 1 group in a commune/communism, getting away from certain types of Burocracy and Democracy that the Greeks wantend, with their tradingwars??

O.K. Thanks for sharing. So Jews don't have to become Hellenistic, good.
#9
Thomas,

You said:
"EXCEPT those rabbinical practices that were added outside of the Tanach and are contradicted by New Testament teachings.  Men covering their heads while praying and certain prayers and beliefs about the nature of G-d are among those."

Okay, what about fringes on the corners of our garments? How are we to know how to wear them if not for "rabbinical practices"? Or should everyone just wear whatever kind of fringes they want? This way they would be observing the commandment but not the rabbinical practice.

Or is your answer going to be that they weren't contradicted by the nt?
#10
Yetzirah231 Wrote:We Jews celebrate all kind of exiles... via fast-days, Pesach = going out of Egypt, or with Purim = out of Babylon...

But the one with the Greek-Hellenists was different.
We stayed in our country. The Greeks tried to enforce the enlightenment-idea of equality upon us. We shoulnd't be different.
With all kind of agreements with Alexander the Great we where allowed to keep our temple, and for a while not put their Greek statues in our Temple.

I tried to, but it was hard to, keep Shemonat Yemei Hanukkah this year. So, some of us celebrate both Hanukkah and Christmas. Read Romans 14. Also, Paul means that the Church isn't a "Jews only" or "Greek only" society or community.


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