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Satan/Devil/Lucifer/Jesus
#1
Ok, I need some clarification. I was told that our view of evil vs good is not right (by a Jewish nonbeliever of Jesus). He said that they don't view Satan as the Devil. He said Satan is a servant of God and no where in the Torah (OT) does it talk about him being in battle with God because God is in control of all things. So apparently they don't believe in the battle between good and evil here on earth?
Also, they say that Israel is God's firstborn son, and that the scriptures referring to son in OT refers to them (just as Isaiah 53/servent). See
Exodus 4:22(God referring to Israel as his son).
So having all this in mind, I started searching scriptures. I tried figuring out if Lucifier was actually Satan. From the OT, I couldn't seem to verify that. Then when reading the description of Lucifier in Isaiah 14:12-21, I got this evil thought (Sooo evil, I don't even want to type it...but I will because God knows my thoughts anyway, and I want this resolved NOW!!!) It refers to Lucifer as "son of morning", cut down for weakening the nations, he said he would exalt above all and be like the Most High, those will gaze at you and consider you saying "Is this the man who made the earth tremble?" cast out like an abominable branch. He has destroyed his land and his people. So I got scared because Jesus is also refered to as the bright morning star in Revelation 22:16. And the evil thought that came to my mind was...what if Jesus was Lucifer? the ultimate deciever weakening the nations? And what if the New Testament was the ultimate antichrist(being that Jesus was)? What if Israel is the son spoken of everywhere and what if the Jews are right? Then this played into my "Why does there have to be sacrifices again if Jesus was our sacrifice". ERRRR why does this have to be so hard. I prayed last night about it and I'm keeping my faith in Jesus Christ as my Savior/Messiah and feel he will pull me through this issue (like he has many). I always end up thanking him for giving me the issues and then leading me out of them because it always makes me stronger in the end....Anyone with any understanding of this, please help and give scripture to support. Thanks.
#2
To add to this, the unbeliever said that it "the new testament isn't right" because if anyone knew how Jews believe then they would know that what was said in NT was wrong...the example he gave was, that they accused Jesus of casting out the demons in the power of Satan. But he said that would have never been done because it is a new concept in the New Testament, because they only believe that Satan is an obideant server of God and follows his commands as in Job.   Any thoughts???
#3
Krisi,

Look up the name "Lucifer" and it's original meanings. It has nothing to do with a "devil". It refers to the morning star as you said, most likely a planet. If you read the text of Isaiah 14, and also many xtian concordances, you'll clearly seeing it is talking of the King of Babylon.

And you are also correct when you quoted the Hebrew bible where it also clearly states the Israel is Hashem's first born son.

We do believe in a battle between good and evil. It is the battle within ourselves though, not between Hashem and "a fallen angel" or the "devil".

You will never see the Hebrew satan "battling Hashem.

The hasatan is only mentioned a few times in the Hebrew bible. Contrast to the xtian bible where it seems to be the main focus (besides jc of course!).

I will now let the other posters voice their beliefs.

Just be sure you read what the Hebrew bible actually says, not what someone wants you to believe it refers to.
#4
Krisi,
JESUS IS THE LOVE OF GOD.

That thought is Satan talking to you. He will leave out passages to try and pervert you.
Satan is a man, a fallen Cherub who is no longer an angel(Messenger of God).
He is called a man now, not a man as in human but as masculine.
The angels that follow him are called devils(messengers of satan).

CLEARLY SAY'S A COVERING CHERUB
Eze:28:16: By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Lucifer the cherub loves violence
The mountain of God is in High Heaven and God is saying He will cast all remnants of him out!
The Cherub sinned.
God is going to destroy him
He is a Cherub
He is God's enemy and opposite of God.

The non-believing Jews that are telling you that stuff left out
Da:10:13: But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
DO THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE GABRIEL AND MICHAEL WERE FIGHTING HUMANS. Ridiculous what those false rabbi's teach.
That prince of Persia is satan and his crew.

"SON OF THE MORNING" IS NOT "THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR!"
Lucifer  in Isa:14:12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!  how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
The devil was one of the first Cherub's created by God. Morning is the beginning of the day and Lucifer is that old. That is why he was called son of the morning because he was one of the first angels.
Not sun as in star but son of the morning, God is not the morning, God made the beginning.
He was given great responsibility but it went to his head and pride caused him to deceive and his fall.
If it's Tovia Singer's writings your reading, he is really messed up. He doesn't know Torah or Tanach. He knows what they call traditional Judaism. Not Biblical Judaism. He knows nothing  of God as our ancestors new. Stay away from them and seek the Kingdom of Heaven and you will meet your Jesus the only RABBI. Than you will be safe and strong in the Lord thy God.

Star, Morning
a name figuratively given to Christ (Rev. 22:16; comp. 2 Pet.
1:19). When Christ promises that he will give the "morning star"
to his faithful ones, he "promises that he will give to them
himself, that he will give to them himself, that he will impart
to them his own glory and a share in his own royal dominion; for
the star is evermore the symbol of royalty (Matt. 2:2), being
therefore linked with the sceptre (Num. 24:17). All the glory of
the world shall end in being the glory of the Church." Trench's
Comm.

Without JESUS there is no LIGHT, just darkness.
#5
Lucifer and it's true meaning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer




#6
I see you have already been answered by a couple of people, pro/con...but this might help you also, even though it does not go the your specific question:
Seven Circles of Certainty (If Y'shua Isn't the Messiah, Who Is?)

Quote:Circle 7 — The Circle of Chronology
Read Daniel 9:24-26. Whoever the Messiah was/is, he had to come before the destruction of the Second Temple. Daniel was a young man, actually a boy, when the Babylonian Captivity occurred. In Chapter 9 we see him as an old man. Realizing that God had foretold that the captivity would last 70 years, and that the 70 years were almost completed, Daniel began to fast and pray, confessing his sins and those of the people. Although Daniel was concerned with an immediate situation, i.e., the rebuilding of the city and the Temple and the end of the captivity, God's answer embraced the entire problem of sin and redemption. He spoke to Daniel of the coming of the Messiah and stated the following: 1) The city would be rebuilt, as would the Temple. 2) The Messiah would come. 3) The Messiah would be "cut off" (die) but not for himself. 4) The city and the Temple would be destroyed.

Thus, whatever else this admittedly cryptic passage means, one thing is certain: The Messiah had to come and die during the time of the Second Temple and before its destruction in 70 A.D.

In all ways, Y'shua fits the prophetic descriptions of the promised Redeemer.

-red emphasis mine-

So, if Yeshua is an imposter, where/who is the "real Messiah"??

-cont-
#7
Also, krisi, "why will sacrifices begin again?"...How about "why did they cease?" Curious timing, huh?

What happened between 30 AD and 70 AD, when the Second Temple was finally destroyed? And what are the implications?

Recorded by non-Messianic Jews- Talmud Yoma 39:

Rachmiel Frydland: When Talmud is Right
Quote:
Forty years before the Holy Temple was destroyed the following things happened: The lot for the Yom Kippur goat ceased to be supernatural; the red cord of wool that used to change to white [as a symbol of God's forgiveness) now remained red and did not change and the western candle in the candlestick in the sanctuary refused to burn continually while the doors of the Holy Temple would open of themselves. [Tractate Yoma 39:b]

The Talmud takes this clearly as a sign of the departure of the SHECHINA GLORY from the Temple in Jerusalem. Surely there is a great coincidence in that these things happened forty years before the Temple was destroyed. This brings us to about A.D. 30; the time when the Lord Yeshua (Jesus) died on a hill outside of Jerusalem. He called on the people of Israel to believe in His Messiahship, yet the majority refused!

There is another wise saying of the Rabbis in the same Tractate of the Talmud:

Why was the first Holy Temple destroyed? Because of three wicked things: idol worship, adultery, and murder. But in the second Temple in which time the Jewish people were occupied studying the Torah and doing good deeds and acts of charity why was it then destroyed? The answer is: It was because of hatred without a cause to teach you, that hate without a cause is equal to these sins and that it is as serious a crime as the three great transgressions of idol worship, adultery, and murder. [Yoma 9].

The Talmud does not answer the question, "Whom did we hate without a cause?" If we hated the Romans, surely there was cause for it, as they were pagans bent on destroying us physically, spiritually, and morally. The Pharisees, we are told in history, were not hated but rather loved people. Sadducees were not hated; they were a priestly party serving God inside His Temple. But, there was One who indeed applied the words to Himself! We read in the Brit Hadasha, the life of the Lord Yeshua written by His followers.

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not sin; but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause [John 15.24, 25].

YHWH Abba confirms YHWH Yeshua.


#8
Per Webster:
Lucifer
LU'CIFER, n. [L. lux, lucis, light, and fero, to bring.]

1. The planet Venus, so called from its brightness.

2. Satan.

And when he falls, he falls like Lucifer, never to hope again.

Interesting that the Noun: Lucifer is from "Latin," and not from Hebrew:

Strongs, H1966:
äéìì
hêylêl
BDB Definition:
Lucifer = “light-bearer”
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (figuratively)
2) (TWOT) ‘Helel’ describing the king of Babylon
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H1984 (in the sense of brightness)
Same Word by TWOT Number: 499a



Andrew Faussett 1821-1910 (Co-Author of JFB Commentary on the Bible) offers the most extensive discription, from my e-sword software.

Lucifer:

"light bringer", "the morning star": Isa_14:12 (helel, "spreading brightness".) Symbol of the once bright but now fallen king of Babylon. The title belongs of right to Christ (Rev_22:16), therefore about to be assumed by antichrist, of whom Babylon is type and mystical Babylon the forerunner (Rev_17:4-5). The language is primarily drawn from that of Satan himself, the spirit that energized the pagan world power Babylon, that now energizes the apostate church, and shall at last energize the last secular antichrist (the fourth kingdom little horn) and his champion, the false prophet (the third kingdom little horn), the harlot's successor, who shall oppress Israel, as the fourth kingdom little horn oppresses the Gentile world: Dan_7:8-26 (Chaldee); Dan_8:9-11 (Hebrew); Rev_13:4; Rev_16:13-14; 2Th_2:9. "Lucifer" is thus naturally applied to Satan (Luk_10:18; Rev_12:8-9; Jud_1:6). Jesus saith, cf6 "I will give him that overcometh the morning star", i.e. Myself (Rev_2:28; Rev_22:16); reflecting My brightness, he shall shine like Me "the morning star," sharing My kingly glory of which a star is the symbol (Num_24:17; Mat_2:2).

Keeping in mind that Lucifer/Satan is the original liar, and deceiver, we must be careful as to how we 'box' him, as we might just use the 'box' he/Satan built for us to use.  His lies sound much like truth, and his apparent similarities to Jesus, are only a thin veil of what lies behind.

In Messiah, His Shalom, and discernment.  Arley

#9
Ripley's,

I have a question for you.

In another thread, you refer to many verses where it shows the Jewish people were "cut off" from Hashem.

Now, in Daniel 9, all of a sudden it means a messiah "dies".

Which is it? It can't be both can it?

By the way, the first "annointed one" in Daniel 9 is Cyrus as you would see in the very next chapter of the Hebrew bible - Ezra- if your bible followed the same order as the original.

Cyrus is the annointed one as also described in Isaiah.

Also, why does the KJ bible use the interpretation "annointed one" in every instance EXCEPT Daniel 9 where they mysteriously interpret it as "messiah"?
#10
Ripley's Quote:
"Also, krisi, "why will sacrifices begin again?"...How about "why did they cease?" Curious timing, huh?

What happened between 30 AD and 70 AD, when the Second Temple was finally destroyed? And what are the implications?"


SMR:

To be fair here, they also ceased in between the first and second Temple. Why? Because Hashem describes the only place where sacrifices can be made. In the Temple!!!



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