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In the beginning was the Word
#1
Shalom all, I'm new here so I wanted to get a couple questions answered and start a discussion. First, when John 1:1 refers to the "word" I suspect that is refering to Jesus, right?

Second, Jesus said that not one thing will pass from the law until all things are fufilled. Have all things concerning Jesus been fufilled?

I look forward to your answers as these answers if I'm correct in my opinion will show that the Christian religion is false.

Thanks Yosef
#2
yosef1998 Wrote:Shalom all, I'm new here so I wanted to get a couple questions answered and start a discussion. First, when John 1:1 refers to the "word" I suspect that is refering to Jesus, right?

Second, Jesus said that not one thing will pass from the law until all things are fufilled. Have all things concerning Jesus been fufilled?

I look forward to your answers as these answers if I'm correct in my opinion will show that the Christian religion is false.

Thanks Yosef

So let me get this straight, you're going to try and use the words of Jesus about the Law (in how you misinterpret them), in order to try and assert that we are still under the law, but to then claim that therefore Jesus was not whom he and the Scriptures say he was/is? Is that it?

Um, ah, what's wrong with this picture? Hello?

Hmmm, he doesn't believe in Jesus, yet he wants to use the words of Jesus (as he misinterprets them), to try and bolster the Law, he trying to use Jesus as some type of a credible authority on this, his misinterpretation of this, while at the same time he wanting us to then not believe any other words of Jesus, in how he interprets those, as well.


No wonder you 'eat' so much manna, my terribly confused, blind friend.


God help you.

Love, Ruht



#3
yosef1998 Wrote:Shalom all, I'm new here so I wanted to get a couple questions answered and start a discussion. First, when John 1:1 refers to the "word" I suspect that is refering to Jesus, right?

Second, Jesus said that not one thing will pass from the law until all things are fufilled. Have all things concerning Jesus been fufilled?

I look forward to your answers as these answers if I'm correct in my opinion will show that the Christian religion is false.

Thanks Yosef

This is the first time in history when two covenants take place at the same time. Noah's covenant ended and Abraham's covenant took place of Noah's Covenant. Than Abraham's ended then Moses' took place of it. It is prophecied, in the OT, a new covenant was going to appear. Read....Hosea 1:10 and Hosea 2:23. We know that in the OT God's people is Israel. Who are these "Not my people" that will be called sons of the living God or sons of God? That is when Christianity takes place. Read Romans 9 for the answer of Hosea 1:10 & 2:23. Paul(who was Pharisee of Pharisee, now a servant of Christ Jesus) is telling everyone that Jew and Gentile will be the sons of God through the faith of Jesus Christ. The reason Judaism is still going is because certain prophecies, in Judaism, haven't been fulfilled yet. God is not a liar. He will finish what he started in Judaism. Once the prophesies are fulfilled, the covenant end and a New one will take place. That is the final one. Once all the prophecies of Christianity are fulfilled then the covenant of Christianity will end and will join Judaism to the last covenant together. The trumpet sound and the remnant of Judaism and Christians' bodies will be transform with an angelic body or Heavenly body like the God's faithful angels. This will be done in a twinkle of an Eye. Since Judaism didn't accept their Messiah or God, then God found favor in "Not of his People" and called them his sons or sons of God. That is Christianity. Just like Judaism, Christianity started with the Jews too. The prophecies of Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 fit will with Christianity because it start with the Jews to be a light to the Gentiles. So your interpretation that "Christian religion is false" is a false statement. Don't you believe what Hosea saids? It is in the OT. Do you believe only parts of the Tanakh or all of it? You can't nit-pick. This isn't the word of yosef but it is the word of God. If you don't believe me then please explain to me what does "Not my People will be the sons of God" in the passages of Hosea really mean? This is your chance to prove me wrong. If I am wrong please do it through the word of God and not by your opinion. Prove me wrong through scripture.
#4
Indeed it's hard to proof that Jesus is that Word... that's just filled in by Christians later, maybe even by Jesus himself.

It's more that The Almighty with words/sayings created the world. Just as the Israelites saw His voice. Seeing of what is to be created and was created.
The first word of 2 letters is ''Ab'' meaning Father and so it went on...
So even the Bible he gave us had to be written in words... not in single letters, not in sentences (for in Hebrew there where no dots), without beginning nor end.

#5
yosef1998 Wrote:Shalom all, I'm new here so I wanted to get a couple questions answered and start a discussion. First, when John 1:1 refers to the "word" I suspect that is refering to Jesus, right?

Second, Jesus said that not one thing will pass from the law until all things are fufilled. Have all things concerning Jesus been fufilled?

I look forward to your answers as these answers if I'm correct in my opinion will show that the Christian religion is false.

Thanks Yosef

Shalom, yosef.

First:  Yes.

Second:  No.

I look:  No wonder no one has offered a word to you, 'General Custer.'

For what it is worth, many Jews, and Christians, are being killed, daily, for their faith, and your mere words are going to disallow a Faith that people are willing to be murdered for?  I think not, but you do your worst, within the guidelines the mods. allow.  I cannot guarantee that anyone will even bother to debate the subject, again, after a previous, again.

In Messiah.  Arley
#6
The Word of John 1 is most definitely Jesus, as the rest of the chapter makes clear.

Your second question refers to Matthew 5:18: "For truly I say unto you, Until the sky and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall pass away from the Law until all has been fulfilled."  Jesus was not referring to all things concerning Jesus being fulfilled, but rather all of the Law being fulfilled.  Furthermore, the Law is not to be fulfilled and pass away until the sky and earth pass away, so your question should have been, "Have the sky and earth passed away?"  Therefore, according to Jesus, as long as you see the sun and moon in the sky, the Law cannot pass away.  There are some Christian religions or doctrinal systems that teach that the Law has passed away, and therefore those doctrinal systems are false.  You should note, however, that saying this or that Christian religion is false does NOT imply that everything that religion teaches is false, particularly, it does NOT imply that Jesus is not the Messiah.  Examine Jesus by His own teachings.
#7
No Ruht, this has nothing to do with what Jesus said, or the law either, sorry. It is a simple fact that most christians claim that Jesus was the "word" mentioned in the NT. It is also a fact that Christians claim that Jesus after his resurrection ascended into heaven where he is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Clearly the Tanach teaches that YeHWeH's word has gone out of His "mouth" and that His word would not "return" to Him until all things are fufilled. Jesus clearly did not fufill all things yet it is claimed that he, the word, returned to YeHWeH.

Therefore I must conclude that most Christians & Messianics teach what is contrary to Tanach, and therefore should be rejected.

Yosef
#8
En arche een ho Logos, kai Logos een pros ton Theon, kai Theos een ho Logos.  (John 1:1 in Greek transliteration)

The Verb in the Greek will generally have 5 features:
1) tense,  2) voice,  3) mood,  4) person,  5) number

Tense: There will be six tenses in the Greek.
1)Aorist (a simple undefined action),  2)Future (action in the future),
3)Imperfect (continuous or linear action in the past),
4)Perfect (action or process in the past that continues up to the present),   5) Pluperfect (action in the past that had continued up to a point of conclusion in the past), 6) Present (contemporaneous action)

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-D, and the Word was G-D.  In actual order, John 1:1c reads, "and G-D was the Word". / kai Theos een ho Logos.


En - A preposition: meaning "In", "at", "near by", "near to" (an object, place, or location). Sometimes translated as "on", or "upon".  This preposition may be translated as "among" when coupled with "mesos" ('to be in the middle'): bringing out the thought of - as "being in...", "being at...", "being among a..." 'multitude' or 'gathering' of people. (cf. Matthew 2:6; 11:11,21).
In John 1:1, en is used as a definitive point in time during which an event is taking place "in". (Cf. Matthew 2:1, 3:1, 8:13).
#9
(the)  Beginning: Arche' - an anarthous noun...Anarthous means "to be without joints".   In Greek Grammar, this simply means that this noun is found without a definite article (such as being preceded by "the").  That is, there is no "ho" or "the" Arche. This emphasis is placed first upon logos, as "ο λογος" or "THE Word".

In classical Greek, its verb (archo) is found in the "active" Voice. An "active voice" is defined as: "that action which is represented or being accomplished by the subject of the verb." (Or a definition to this effect.)  When we look at Arche, (the) Beginning in John 1:1, we are pointed to the word "Bereishis" in the Hebrew. What happened in Genesis 1:1?   In the beginning G-D made the heaven and the earth. (Gen. 1:1)  And how does John begin His Gospel?

In the beginning was the Word....   So what is happening here in John 1:1 with Arche, (the) Beginning? The Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 freely translates to the effect of: "In the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth."
Therefore, we are to look and see John 1:1 in light of Genesis 1:1's  "dynamic" of an active Creator (cf. John 1:2-3).  

In Psalm 111, we read that:
2) The works of the L-RD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.  3) His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. 4) He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the L-RD is gracious and full of compassion...
7) The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.  8) They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
  

Jesus said, "I am the truth" in John 14:6, which is also a claim to origins from before all that was made was ever made, a claim of being the Uncreated and Creator.   Arche and Bereishis are more than just words of  a "Beginning" of G-D's great works, they testify as keyword signs bringing into reminiscence, remember G-D's creating the Heaven(s) and the Earth. Hence, with Arche in John 1:1, we come to a definitive point in time...a starting point for when all this happens.
#10
In the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1, there is an arugument that can be made that the Alef-Tav which follows Elohim (G-D) refers to Jesus, the Alef-Vav-Tav ("oth" - sign) that "is to come". The root word "to come" in Hebrew is Alef-Tav-He. If taken in that context...we jump to Revelation 1:11 with Jesus declaring himself as equivalent of the Hebraic Alef-Tav in Genesis 1:1.  Hence...a Beginning...a creating of both the Heavens and the Earth to testify as G-D's sign "to come" is revealed as having been fulfilled in Jesus, with Jesus, and through Jesus in John 1:1.

In Genesis 1:2, we see the person of the Holy Spirit hovering and fluttering (in the Hebrew) as a dove over a valley habitation (cf. Eze. 7:16) after that Job 38:4-7 has already occurred.  Arche - In the classical Greek, its verb (archo) is found in the active voice. In comparison, the verb "to be" (eimi) is found in all 3 voices of active, middle, and passive. We do not see the middle voice in Arche (e.g., then shall I begin). Nor do we see Arche in the passive (I had begun).

In the English translation from Greek, the English language does not use a "middle voice"...only an active and passive. Translating that gap, will be the responsibilty of a translator; but Arche in John 1:1, being in the Active Voice, informs us that the action of "(the) Beginning"  clearly is being accomplished by "ho Logos", the subject of the verb (whom we know is Jesus Christ).
In the New Testament, the verb "archo" places an emphasis upon rulers who are to be described as "First" men (Romans 15:12, Mark 10:42).The noun "archon" informs us that these are men who are "First" in power. When Jesus speaks with Nicodemus in John 3:1, he was speaking to more than just a member of the Sanhedrin. Nicodemus was "First" in Eretz Israel. Beyond the walls of Jerusalem, he must have had the title of "Chief Rabbi", and have been one of the 7 elders of the Sanhedrin.

G-D is more than just being First. G-D is our finality or End. G-D is  our perfect source of change into perfection, and our Eternal Life. G-D never changes, but we --His Creation-- do change. What does that tell us about why G-D created a Beginning in the first place?


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