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Christian history and the Jewish people
#1
Sad 
After reading the article, "Why Rabbis Don't Believe in Jesus", I had a few thoughts I would like to discuss:

Although I agree with parts of the article, I am concerned about what it fails to mention.  

It is true that the synogogue and Christ-followers of the Way seperated early on and conversion often means loss of family and community but this is not the end of the story.  We need to acknowledge our own Christian history in this matter.  

Let's be honest how can  a people group who has been consistently persecuted by Christians throughout history, which reflects in their words about Jesus in the Talmud (which are mild considering the amount of violence and degregation they endured), truly except Christianity when it raises the moment of the cross above every other moment in the incarnation?  

If the cross equals violence and the church in many many ways reflects the Medieval church theology then how can a Jew come to belief in the salvation of the cross if he has only experienced violence due to it?  

It has only been fourty years since the Catholic church has changed its own stand on the universal damnation of Jews for deicide and much longer for local churches to accept, never mind the general negative attitude about Old Testament, Law and Pharisees.  

The church in general does not understand its root and therefore cannot understand its own scriptures in the way those who wrote them would have.  The faith is contorted in the ways it is taught.  I don't know how many people I have heard say they have the truth but there is no action to show this, only a belief and a superior attitude that is damaging and offensive.  

The Rabbis cannot believe because the Christ we profess does not line up with the Scriptures.  However, the Christ who IS does.  People will know Him by the action of His ambassadors, the church.  Has the church lived up to its calling???

Before we are willing to point our finger at Judaism, especially being a membership who professes to love the Jewish people, perhaps we should take a square look at ourselves and wrestle with the  implications of Christian history, doctrine, dogma and attitude upon those we are ministering to.
#2
"The Rabbis cannot believe because the Christ we profess does not line up with the Scriptures.  However, the Christ who IS does."

What if the Christ I profess does line up with the scriptures?  Then do I have the responsibility to take my place alongside those who do not profess the Christ of the scriptures and apologize for them?  I decry those actions.  I understand how Jews have been handed a stumbling block, and greatly lament this diabolically twisted message that has come from the organized Christian church.  I also consider that I am on the same side of persecution as the Jews, since all of the persecutions of the Jews were also directed at Bible-believing Christians such as myself.  Including the present day, where I went to a high-ranking Christian theology professor to discuss the New Testament and he told me he wouldn't discuss it with me because that part of the New Testament was incomprehensible, am I asked to take my pace alongside this theology professor and apologize for his beliefs as if they were my own?  I will not do that.  He calls himself a Christian.  I call myself a Christian also.  However, I do not consider myself to be of the same membership as he is.  I know this is hard for Jews to understand, however, I will not plead guilty to make the Jews feel better when I do not believe I am guilty, since that would be bearing false witness.
#3
Hi Lisa Falk

It sounds like a good idea.

At the other hand under the new pope, influenced by the Old-Catholic Church mainly, some old teksts about Jews are brought back into prayer etc. (so the 2nd vatican concilia is allready losing it's strenght, and old traditions die hard).
At the other hand, the Protestant Church also has it's responsibility to take.

And at another hand, it's always logicall between most religious and political groups, that only a handfull of people will come close the the leaders understanding of things. So I can't blame people for a lot of misunderstandings ''in the name off''.
So who can we trust, mostly people who realy believe in doing good towards others... in a war etc. those are the only people you might want to hide. o.k. than it doesn't mather if they are Chinese, German, Socialistic, Communistic or Republicans etc. as long as you are safe.

I know that a lot of Rabbi's also don't have much problems with Jesus. It's mainly the caracter of Paul that Churches wanted to have into the Christian Testament. Meaning that the agression Paul had first against Christians, now turned towards Jews... So we have more a problem with Paul and all kind of ideas that he had.

Besides that, I don't think Churches will change a lot. Messianic -(Jews) have been arround about 600 years and always have been the minority. The large Churches will stay with the western dogma, of the good and the bad etc.
#4
"It's mainly the caracter of Paul that Churches wanted to have into the Christian Testament."

Paul's teachings and Jesus' teachings are both from God and are both correct.
#5
i AM READING John Hagee's book " In Defense of Israel" and starting at cht. 4 it starts getting goog. Chpt. 1-3 is nothing more than reverse pendulim swinging. He blames ans makes horrific accusations but omits the actual facts so it cannot be properly substantitated...in his bad effort to not be anti-semetic ( and I do support Israel...Spiritual..all of us...and physical..the nation) he swings to the farthest extreme and basiccally puts halos on all Jews. This too is wrong...dare I say even possibly worse than anti-semitism. You ask me why? Because no one is perfect or good except G-d, not even Jesus would klet someone call him good. He made the error of going to far in the other dire cion. More on this later!
#6
i think it would be good for every one to read foxe's book of martyrs which tell in graphic detail the persecutions laid upon the protestants and Jews while the word of God was spreading accross the globe .i don't mean to be hatefull to the catholic church but it inflicted as much ,or more, death and torture upon gentiles as it did on Jews . it is a histoy book about the blood of the saints . the catholic church used it's influence to use national governments to destroy anyone who didn't agree with it's interpretations of scriptures. the Bible says the kingdom of heaven is not by force but the " mother church" chased Christians and Jews ;who refused to say the Pope is the most Holy Father, around the world untill
The word reached the wilderness of the usa where freedom of religion subdued the persecution. but the battle will continue untill the end and the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel stand up and the nations are judged. Just as egypt condemned  it's own when they thought to condemn the Jewish first born so has the united nations condemned themselves in condemning Israel. so we wait .
#7
I am re-reading the last part of book ," In Defense of Israel" by John Hagee again. While their is some that he writes that I disagree with I do admire his courage and strong support of Israel. I had some concederns because he seems to overly promote himself in this book and if he left off some of his pictiures and some of his I speak with so ans so it would seem more humble.
I always shiver when someone goes overboard in hailing a certain group of peoples virtues because its dangerous not to see that we all have faults and we all fail G-d.  Like much of his booh ie his apology to the Jewish people for crimes done by Christians, but again,he goes on to say that these individuals are either not real Chrfistinas, fanatics , or worse out and out imposters.
#8
yes hope , i havn't read any of his books but i've seen Him on tv a few times and I didn't always agree on every thing he said. but at least he seems to be for Israel. which is good . it's better than being luke warm.
  I know God is for Israel but I don't know of any way to help except Pray and that is effective . i think i know how Israel could destroy Iran's nuke  build up in fact i think there is two way's to do it  IF Israel has the ordnance to do it . i'm sure the Israelies know it too so i've been waiting to see what takes place . even if they don't have the tools . nothing is impossible with God I know he will have the gentiles turn on each other before they destroy Israel . I just don't know the specifics or time . zephaniah 3;8 Therefore wait ye upon me , saith the Lord , untill the day that I rise up to the prey ; for my determination is to gather the nations , that I may assemble the kingdoms , to pour upon them mine indignation , even all my fierce anger ; for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy . i pray the Lord watches over you and you loved ones .peace in his comforter .
#9
Hi Thomas DGW

Quote:Paul's teachings and Jesus' teachings are both from God and are both correct.

Where is that written? did Jesus agreed with that? I mean Paul seems to have here and there other opinions than Jesus, and especially different than Jesus brother Jacob. In the book of Jacob and other NT-books you can see that Paul seems to be corrected by Jacob now and then.

???
#10
Freeholic836

Quote:The word reached the wilderness of the usa where freedom of religion subdued the persecution.

Well freedom of religion was subdued by over 10 other nations first then in the u.s.a. (leaving out even the concept that according to protestant u.s.a. Indians where not able to become Christians for they where by some protestants not considered human so they had to stay in camps, what was a nationwide issue).

The first ''western'' country (for in other countries it was not that much an issue always) to have freedom of religion was Surinam, where also some Jews came from towards the U.S.A.  AFTERWARDS France and Holland took Freedom of religion. The idea came mainly by the French (revolutions), and the English where happy to join for they where from origin not catholic at all. At the other hand the Dutch and English did persecute the Irish-catholics... So maybe only Surinam and France had the longest tradition of freedom of religion?

So when the Dutch in New-Amsterdam/Philidelphia brought freedom of religion, and the English Kings where also decendents of Dutch Kings, Northeast America did choose freedom for all religions. When the U.S.A choosed to be on it's own, catholics where for a long while not allowed to immigrate, so the U.S.A went back to older discrimination concepts.

For the rest the U.S.A. later became more o.k. with slavery but where still very extreme against communists etc. and had stadiums full of Nazi's, luckely it didn't become a national issue, but some American companies where not against imprissoning Communists and Jews in Germany, some companies even actively did organize their own labourcamps there. So I don't know in how far usa brought freedom of religion always.

I must agree that the usa did a lot of heroic things also. But I disagree that the usa brought more than other countries freedom or religion, still it is enforcing a lot of ''protestant'' ideas upon other nations.



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