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Different understanding
#11
My reply;
I am as are many Jews "prepared to accept the truth in our hearts". Just as you have most likely read about what the Jehovah Witness believes, what the Mormon believes, what the Buddhist believes, etc, and you do not "accept their truth", I feel the same about xtianity. My heart is wide open. The scriptures have revealed themselves to me.

I am not "scared" or else I wouldn't even be here to learn. I have learned quite a lot and have ridden myself of many misconceptions about xtianity.
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I having been raised Catholic, and then converted to Christianity(not saying that Catholics do not consider themselves Christians), began a very personal walk with El Ohm My God.  While still in the process, I found myself having to renounce beliefs that were taught to me by man's interpretation of the Old testament and the New. And be willing to accept only One Truth which is revealed in my secret place of prayer. I found myslef renounce certain idols, etc.  The Christian religion was not something that was started by Yeshua.  It was a Roman degragation of the followers of Yeshua.  I stopped looking to a religion and started to receive a personal relationship with El Ohm My God.  In this process in which I am still experiencing, scriptures are revealed.  Communication becomes clearer. My relationship becomes more sanctified.  It is not about telling someone how to believe.  It is about leading someone in the direction of having a personal relationship with El God Our Father, El Ohm My God!!!  WE are in different places in our growth.  I see this forum as a place to support one another in growth.  In thier search for the One Truth!!!.  The enemy wants to pit us one against the other.  It only happens if we allow it!!!
#12
ThomasDGW Wrote:I wasn't quoting the verse about the veil.  I was making a personal observation that you have a veil.  God said He would bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12), but how did you decide that the lamb was a god of Egypt?  Besides, what the Egyptians thought of the lamb is irrelevant to what God says the lamb is.  Why should you take that idea and make a difficulty for Jesus to be the Passover Lamb.  I did not call Jesus that.  The New Testament calls Jesus our Passover (I Corinthians 5:7).  Would you say that a shepherd is caring for an Egyptian deity?  Of course not.  Then why say that Jesus cannot be the Passover Lamb because that would be making Jesus an Egyptian deity.  When you invent unnecessary difficulties and obstacles like that, I see that your mind is veiled.

I didn't "decide" the lamb was a god of Egypt. It is a known fact. The Hebrew bible tells us the Egyptians abhorred shepherds from the time of Joseph and it is related to later in Exodus 7.

You said;
" Besides, what the Egyptians thought of the lamb is irrelevant to what God says the lamb is".

Good idea! Let's see what G-d says about the Passover Lamb...........

Exodus 12: (JPT)
5. You shall have a perfect male lamb in its [first] year; you may take it either from the sheep or from the goats.

So right here we see it doesn't even have to be a lamb.

6. And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.
7. And they shall take [some] of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel, on the houses in which they will eat it.
8. And on this night, they shall eat the flesh, roasted over the fire, and unleavened cakes; with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. You shall not eat it rare or boiled in water, except roasted over the fire its head with its legs and with its innards.
10. And you shall not leave over any of it until morning, and whatever is left over of it until morning, you shall burn in fire
11. And this is how you shall eat it: your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste it is a Passover sacrifice to the Lord.

This is the Passover Lamb according to G-d. I see nothing related to jc or sin or a messiah. As verse 14 says, "it is a memorial a festival for the Lord throughout your generations, you shall celebrate it as an everlasting statute."
#13
Hello searchinmyroots,

"This is the Passover Lamb according to G-d. I see nothing related to jc or sin or a messiah. As verse 14 says, "it is a memorial a festival for the Lord throughout your generations, you shall celebrate it as an everlasting statute."

If Jesus was the Passover Lamb, let's accept it for the sake of this discussion, why wasn't he, "roasted over the fire" and then eaten?

Also, it's kind of strange that G-D sacrificed his own son, himself to himself. Very strange indeed!


best regards,

Avraham
#14
"I see nothing related to jc or sin or a messiah."

When you say, "I see nothing", either there is nothing to see, or you have a veil over your eyes.  When I look, I see a whole bunch of things related to sin and the Messiah.  The Passover lamb (Yes, I know a lamb can be a goat, so what?  I used to have pet goats and I am quite fond of them.) when its blood is applied is a release from a sentence of death to the first born.  The shedding of blood and the obedient application of that blood saves a soul.  That is a profound concept.  Next, the Passover is eaten as a precursor to leaving slavery forever.  Eat the lamb and go free. Another profound concept.  Next, those who were redeemed by the Passover lamb, the firstborn, belonged to God. The Passover lamb not only saved the life, but also transferred ownership of the redeemed individual to God.  Profound concept #3.  Next, there was to be no leaven eaten.  Leaven is a permeating agent and getting the leaven out of one's house speaks of purity. The life of freedom is to be a life of purity.  Profound concept #4, directly related to getting sin out of the life.

Now, the Messiah: isn't he supposed to provide eternal freedom for Israel?  The Passover lamb was required for Israel to leave Egypt into temporal freedom.  The Messiah is then pictured by the Passover lamb.

Now, I saw those things in the Torah.  I can spell them out for you  from the Torah.  Why could you not see those things?  They are there to see and show.  You must have a veil over your mind.
#15
Thomas,
I see you keep referring to "a veil over your mind" in thse different threads. I don't see it as a veil, I see it as a different understanding. I could say the same for you; you have "blinders" on and can only see in one direction. But goingback and forth like that doesn't really serve a purpose.

You admit the Passover sacrifice can be a goat, but them say "so what" and quickly dismiss it. Why?? If jc is referred to as the Passover Lamb, then let's look at the Word of G-d. According to G-d, jc could be the Passover Goat. It really is about the sacrifice isn't it?

Since it is about the sacrifce, why aren't the other things mentioned that are part of the sacrifice important? The sacrifice (lamb or goat) must be held until the 14th day for inspection. It must be roasted and eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. It shall not be eaten rare or boiled, except roasted over the fire its head with its legs and with its inwards. You shall not leave anything left over and whatever is must be burned.

Either you obey G-d's rules of sacrifice completely or you don't. One cannot sacrifice the way they want to, even if they think it is for the good. That's what happened with Aaron's son's. They tried to burn the incense but it wasn't the way G-d prescribed it. What happend to them?

Why were the Israelites freed? Because they believed in their G-d and obeyed Him. Do you think if one had sacriced a bull instead of a lamb, they would have been passed over? Their intentions may have been good.

You said "The shedding of blood and the obedient application of that blood saves a soul."

I disagree. It's not only the shedding of blood. It is obeying everything that is required of the sacrifice.

" Leaven is a permeating agent and getting the leaven out of one's house speaks of purity"

I agree, so blood doesn't wash away the sins here does it?
#16
"I don't see it as a veil, I see it as a different understanding."

It is not a different understanding.  It is a case of simply not seeing things that I just showed you are there.

In modern usage, "lamb" is only a young sheep.  In the Tanach AND New Testament, "lamb" can be a young sheep or a young goat.  I repeat, So what?

To sacrifice the physical Passover Lamb, certain procedures must be followed, just as incense must be offered in the Temple in a certain way, by the priest.  However, our prayers are spiritual incense and we can still offer prayers without finding a descendant of Aaron like Tovia Singer to present our prayers.  In a similar way, Jesus was not an actual physical lamb or kid goat.  He was a man.  He could not be offered as a roast meal for people to eat in their homes.  He was the spiritual Passover sacrifice, and therefore the details of how His physical body was treated do not conform to the way a Passover lamb is killed in a kosher way.

"I disagree. It's not only the shedding of blood. It is obeying everything that is required of the sacrifice."

Why are you disagreeing?  That is what I said, in almost the same words.

"... so blood doesn't wash away the sins here does it?"

No, the Passover Lamb does not wash away sins at Passover. It brings a soul out of the death sentence to life and freedom.  Jesus's Passover sacrifice provides new spiritual life, which is free of sin, by resurrection.  The washing away of sins is done later as the person with the new life confesses and forsakes his sins in the flesh.  That is represented by the daily offerings and the Yom Kippur sacrifice in particular.  Those sacrifices were done with Jesus' blood in the real Temple in heaven, not by a Levite priest, as must be done in the earthly Temple, but by Jesus the high priest after the order of Mechizedek.
#17
Thomas,

"I don't see it as a veil, I see it as a different understanding."

You said; It is not a different understanding.  It is a case of simply not seeing things that I just showed you are there.

So if one doesn't see things your way, they are wrong? Only you have the correct interpretations? If any xtains here disagree with you, they don't have a different understanding, they just don't see things that are there correct? I remain; it is a different understanding.

"I disagree. It's not only the shedding of blood. It is obeying everything that is required of the sacrifice."

You said; "Why are you disagreeing?  That is what I said, in almost the same words."

Almost. Except you said "The shedding of blood and the obedient application of that blood saves a soul. "

I said it is the obedience to the entire commands of G-d regarding the sacrifice, not just the "application of the blood". You can't just take a part out that you see fit.

You said "No, the Passover Lamb does not wash away sins at Passover".

Then; "Jesus's Passover sacrifice provides new spiritual life, which is free of sin, by resurrection."

So jc's Passover Sacrifice includes "to be free from sin" if one "confesses and forsakes his sins in the flesh".

How can you add sin into the Passover Sacrifice? It had nothing to do with being free from sin. Was the lamb/goat free from sin?

It amazes me how some can just focus on the sin offerings. What about all of the others? The whole of the offerings included much much more than just sin. There was a purpose to bring oneself closer to G-d. Another was to feed the Priests who had no income from a job. Also to feed the poor. It isn't just about sin!


#18
"How can you add sin into the Passover Sacrifice? It had nothing to do with being free from sin."

I already told you.  Why is the unleavened bread added to the Passover lamb?  Because the eating of the Passover lamb involved becoming pure, which spiritually means having no sin.  I did not add that.  The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not principally to have sins forgiven, but to give a new life free from sin represented not only by leaven, but by the slavery and impurity of Egypt.
#19
Shalom searchinmyroots,

The strangest thing to me is how they continually change the meaning of scripture and words themselves to try and force their interpretation into it. And then they have the chootspah to threaten us with eternal damnation. I think the shoe is on the other foot.


"It brings a soul out of the death sentence to life and freedom. "

He made that up. Where do you find such a concept in the Hebrew scriptures?

best regards,

Avraham
#20
"...it is the obedience to the entire commands of G-d regarding the sacrifice, not just the "application of the blood"."

To me, the obedient application of the blood means doing everything just as you said, killing the lamb in the prescribed manner, eating the unleavened bread, staying in the house, the works.  You interpreted my words in the narrowest possible sense when I meant them in the widest sense

The same applies to the spiritual Passover Lamb, Jesus. It is not just a matter of accepting the blood of Jesus, but it also means eating Jesus spiritually, letting his life become your life, the works.  Many Christians, including myself, made the mistake of cutting part of the truth out.  When I saw the truth, it was so amazing, and everything fit, without problems.  But many Christians say just what you are saying, that it is just my opinion and since I have the truth, others must be wrong, and that just couldn't be, and how do I know i am right, etc.  Just look.  It fits. When you really understand what Jesus' death meant all of your objections that it does not fit, and a man can't be a human sacrifice, and Avraham's insulting statements about God sacrificing Himself, etc. vanish.  But I think you still are not looking, just like that Christian doctor of theology I tried to talk to once.


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