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Different understanding
#21
'To me, the obedient application of the blood means doing everything just as you said, killing the lamb in the prescribed manner, eating the unleavened bread, staying in the house, the works.  You interpreted my words in the narrowest possible sense when I meant them in the widest sense"

I read your words in the sentence before as "when its blood is applied is a release from a sentence of death to the first born."

So you meant when the whole sacrificial process took place that was the release?

You said "Why is the unleavened bread added to the Passover lamb?  Because the eating of the Passover lamb involved becoming pure, which spiritually means having no sin."

Again, it's not just the unleavened bread. What about the bitter herbs?

It's all about the feast. G-d tells us it is a feast to be observed forever, and tells us how to observe it. If He tells the Israelites how to observe it, why did He leave out something so important as a future messiah or redeemer? Why did He leave out the "spiritual paschal lamb" or "the spiritual eating of what you believe to be His son's body"?

Nothing fits to me. There is nothing that relates to G-d sending His son in human form "to give a new life free from sin represented not only by leaven, but by the slavery and impurity of Egypt". It is by adhereing to G-d's commandments that frees one from sin.

"Because the eating of the Passover lamb involved becoming pure, which spiritually means having no sin"

Looks like the interpretation of man, not G-d's word. The eating of the Passover Lamb had nothing to do with "having no sin".  
#22
"So you meant when the whole sacrificial process took place that was the release?"

Yes.  To apply the blood obediently, it was necessary to kill the lamb obediently, put the blood in the specified places, stay in the house with the blood on the door, and eat the lamb in the prescribed way, with unleavened bread. If any of the steps were left out, the blood was not being applied obediently.  Only then would the life of the firstborn be spared, which was otherwise under a death sentence.  Only after this whole observance were the Israelites allowed to leave the slavery of Egypt.

"What about the bitter herbs?"

They were part of the Passover sacrifice, also.  I will not get into what I see as the spiritual significance at this time, especially since the New Testament does not elaborate on that detail.

"It is by adhereing to G-d's commandments that frees one from sin."

If you adhere to God's commandments, you have no sin.  The question is, "How do you get from not adhering to God's commandments (living in Egypt's slavery) to adhering to God's commandments (living in the land of Israel)?"  Just do it?  Rabbinical self-help tips?  How about being born again by eating the spiritual Passover Lamb?
#23
"Looks like the interpretation of man, not G-d's word. The eating of the Passover Lamb had nothing to do with "having no sin"."

So eating the Passover lamb meant nothing but getting some protein in the body quickly before Pharaoh sent out the call to leave Egypt?  Eating unleavened bread meant nothing but: Oops, had no time to put leaven in?  Anything beyond that is the "interpretation of man"?

In the New Testament this "interpretation of man" is explicit, while in the Tanach, you have to look a little closer, but Passover definitely represents becoming pure, without sin, in the Tanach.  Besides the symbology of unleavened bread, we see that an unclean person cannot eat of the Passover (Numbers 9:6) and that in the Messianic kingdom a sin offering will be offered before eating the Passover (Ezekiel 45:22).

The Torah does not say, "This Passover Lamb represents the sacrifice of the Messiah."  But it does give enough details and symbology that you should see that something more is going on here that the bare facts.  Then when you read the New Testament saying, "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" (I Corinthians 5:7), you should be prepared to say, "That's it!" instead of, "I don't see anything."
#24
"Looks like the interpretation of man, not G-d's word. The eating of the Passover Lamb had nothing to do with "having no sin".  

Its more of that Woo-Woo Speak. If the "bare facts" don't say it then it isn't there.

"The Torah does not say, "This Passover Lamb represents the sacrifice of the Messiah."

Amen!


Avraham
#25
ThomasDGW Wrote:So eating the Passover lamb meant nothing but getting some protein in the body quickly before Pharaoh sent out the call to leave Egypt?  Eating unleavened bread meant nothing but: Oops, had no time to put leaven in?  Anything beyond that is the "interpretation of man"?

The Torah does not say, "This Passover Lamb represents the sacrifice of the Messiah."  But it does give enough details and symbology that you should see that something more is going on here that the bare facts.  Then when you read the New Testament saying, "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" (I Corinthians 5:7), you should be prepared to say, "That's it!" instead of, "I don't see anything."

The Passover Lamb is all part of G-d's master plan to free the Israelites from the bondage of Egyptian slavery to becoming a nation to be slaves to G-d. Yes that's right, slaves to G-d. If I am correct, the Hebrew word used means slaves.

This is spoken of well before in Exodus: (JPT)
11. But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should take the children of Israel out of Egypt?"

12. And He said, "For I will be with you, and this is the sign for you that it was I Who sent you. When you take the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."

We were taken out of bondage to be a special people who will abide by G-d's special instructions and deliver the wisdom of Torah to the world.




#26
"Yes that's right, slaves to G-d."

SMR, saying it like that, you imply that I might have a problem with that.  I am in 100% agreement of being a slave to God, but slavery to God is complete freedom from sin.  Read Romans 6:16-23.

"We were taken out of bondage to be a special people who will abide by G-d's special instructions and deliver the wisdom of Torah to the world."

Again. I am in 100% agreement with this.  That is why you see me arguing with Christians on this forum who say that the Torah has been canceled by the death of Christ.  That is why you see me telling Jewish Christians that as Jews they should be physically Torah observant.  That is why I, even though I am not a Jew, and believe that spiritual Torah observance is the crucial thing, I am more physically Torah observant than any Jew I have personally met.

The physical Passover lamb was a requirement for getting out of the slavery to Egypt -no Sabbath, false gods- to become "slaves" to God's commandments which bring freedom from slavery to one's desires.  That Torah was written on stone, and it was not kept!  So, God told us through the prophet Jeremiah (31:33) that He had a new covenant planned that would write the Torah on the heart.  That is a spiritual Torah.  You notice that God did not give the details of how He would write the Torah on the heart, but does that mean that God had no way of doing it?  Of course not.  So do you respond by saying, "Since God didn't tell me how He was going to do it, particularly He did not tell me the Messiah was going to do it, I won't believe it when you claim the Messiah was the spiritual Passover who did it."  Okay, you tell me.  What was God's plan for writing the Torah on the heart?  It had not been done in the days of Jeremiah.  The prophet Jeremiah did not have the Torah written on his heart yet.
#27
An different understanding is about the counting of omer....when the count begins?  in 16 Nisan or in the first day afther the first Shabat?

Sadducees (they was the man who doas the job at the Temple) cont not from 16 Nisan.... then how the pharisee were keep Shavuoth? did Israel kept this feast twice?


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