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Different understanding
#1
I absolutely understand if I was Jewish raised in the Torah how I would react toward another Jew who has converted to the Jews for Jesus. How does a Jew for Jesus explain to a Torah believer that they should convert to The new testament and become a christian? The Torah has scripture as does the New testament. When they the Torah believer get to the new testament about Jesus and God as one they would scream blasphemer.

To me God has to intervene into the discussion spiritually because the mind and heart are in a quandary about what to believe. The heart and mind must be equal to believe because the soul as well is in the same situation. To believe is one thing to act upon that believe is another it comes down to a spiritual awakening of the heart mind and soul.
Thoughts please? Paul [email protected]
#2
How does a Jew for Jesus explain to a Torah believer that they should convert to The new testament and become a christian?

@pljames
Your question about converting (above) is not accurate.  It is not about converting to the NT, that is suggesting you leave the OT.  Christians do not believe that way.  The OT is just as much a part of the Bible as the NT.  A Jew accepting Jesus as their Savior is not converting but rather accepting the fullfillment of scripture beginning with the OT and fullfilled in the NT.  For God's chosen people I would think that would be a beautiful realization for them when they recoginize Jesus as the Savior.  

As far as your comment about a Jew reading the NT and wanting to scream blasphamer, well that has a lot to do with life long teachings.  Those that pray to God for understanding and read the NT (following the OT...not looking at it as a seperate gentile book) would see how God's word comes together and is completed in the NT.  

Jesus didn't say it would be easy and I can see how a Jew would be almost afraid to consider Jesus being The One but He is so worth the time to step away from the worldly influences to pray and study both the OT and NT and find out the truth.
#3
"When they the Torah believer get to the new testament about Jesus and God as one they would scream blasphemer."

No, they would not.  The Torah believer would recognize in Jesus the one who met Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and the elders of Israel at Sinai.  There are many Jews who scream, Blasphemer! but they are those who have been trained by philosophical thought to misunderstand the Torah.
#4
ThomasDGW Wrote:"When they the Torah believer get to the new testament about Jesus and God as one they would scream blasphemer."

No, they would not.  The Torah believer would recognize in Jesus the one who met Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and the elders of Israel at Sinai.  There are many Jews who scream, Blasphemer! but they are those who have been trained by philosophical thought to misunderstand the Torah.

No Thomas, a Torah "believer" one who studies what has been studied in it's original language for thousands of years would never recognize jc. Because the truth of the matter is that he is never specifically mentioned in the Hebrew bible.

You "recognize him in the ot" because you have your own philosphical thought. You see things that aren't there or clear, so in a sense, you too are going by "your" thoughts or "mans" since you are mankind. You are no different than the ones you accuse.
#5
Dear searchinmyroots,

Did you ever notice that the Gospels are mentioned in the New Testament but are never quoted? Paul, Jesus and all the gospel writers only quote the Hebrew scriptures. Why is that?

Best regards,

Avraham
#6
Avraham Wrote:Dear searchinmyroots,

Did you ever notice that the Gospels are mentioned in the New Testament but are never quoted? Paul, Jesus and all the gospel writers only quote the Hebrew scriptures. Why is that?

Best regards,

Avraham

Avrham,

To tell the truth, I didn"t know that. Thanks for pointing it out.
#7
"Because the truth of the matter is that he is never specifically mentioned in the Hebrew bible."

Without getting into the arguments about whether Yeshua in the Tanach is referring to a person or not, I refer you to Deuteronomy 18, which speaks of a Prophet to come.  His name is not given.  Does that mean that this Prophet will never come?  Of course not.  And when He comes, and certain Jews recognize Him, will those Jews be told that He cannot be the Prophet because his name was not mentioned specifically?

"No Thomas, a Torah "believer" one who studies what has been studied in it's original language for thousands of years would never recognize jc."

However, the fact is that a number of Jews have concluded that Jesus is there without having read the New Testament.  There is a testimony on internet I read recently of a person like that.  There is no doubt that certain things are hidden, or difficult to understand, in the Tanach.  Daniel 12:9 makes that fact clear.  You should be open to having those unclear things cleared up, and not be saying that if you could not see it when reading in the original language (as Daniel did), then it does not exist.

If a person is not prepared in his heart to accept the truth, the truth will not be visible.  If you are really searching for the truth, and not just searching what you think are your roots in rabbinical Judaism, you should tune out what all men say for a while, including what I say, and examiner your heart, whether or not you are really willing to receive what ever truth God Himself would reveal to you.  Then, if you are really willing, read the Tanach, if you are scared of being influenced by the New Testament, and ask God to remove the veil that has been over your eyes and reinforced by rabbinical teachings.
#8
ThomasDGW Wrote:"Because the truth of the matter is that he is never specifically mentioned in the Hebrew bible."
I refer you to Deuteronomy 18, which speaks of a Prophet to come.  His name is not given.  Does that mean that this Prophet will never come?  Of course not.  And when He comes, and certain Jews recognize Him, will those Jews be told that He cannot be the Prophet because his name was not mentioned specifically?

How can G-d be a prophet? A prophet is one that hears from G-d. I thought the xtian belief is that jc is part of the godhead.

If G-d is one, and you believe jc is "part of that one" than he cannot hear from himself or give himself advice. You cannot compare any prophet in the Hebrew bible to jc because NONE of the prophets were "part of G-d". And if you'll notice, none of them take credit for anything they do or say. All the credit is given to G-d


Then you say;
If a person is not prepared in his heart to accept the truth, the truth will not be visible.  If you are really searching for the truth, and not just searching what you think are your roots in rabbinical Judaism, you should tune out what all men say for a while, including what I say, and examiner your heart, whether or not you are really willing to receive what ever truth God Himself would reveal to you.  Then, if you are really willing, read the Tanach, if you are scared of being influenced by the New Testament, and ask God to remove the veil that has been over your eyes and reinforced by rabbinical teachings.


My reply;
I am as are many Jews "prepared to accept the truth in our hearts". Just as you have most likely read about what the Jehovah Witness believes, what the Mormon believes, what the Buddhist believes, etc, and you do not "accept their truth", I feel the same about xtianity. My heart is wide open. The scriptures have revealed themselves to me.

I am not "scared" or else I wouldn't even be here to learn. I have learned quite a lot and have ridden myself of many misconceptions about xtianity.

Continuing to quote the nt in reference to "the veil" is about as effective as me continuing to quote to you Jeremiah 16:19 saying the gentile nations have inherited lies, or Isaiah 25:7 saying G-d will lift the veil over the people and all nations.

Why do xtians refer to jc as the "paschal lamb" when it was a sign of killing one of the Egyptian dieties? To defy the Egyptian false god? Is that what you want to compare jc to? You can refer to the paschal lamb however you want, but the truth is clear.
#9
Avraham: "Did you ever notice that the Gospels are mentioned in the New Testament but are never quoted?"

SMR: "To tell the truth, I didn"t know that. Thanks for pointing it out. "

We wouldn't expect you to notice something like that.  Few Christians would.  However, the fact that you are thanking Avraham for pointing this out shows a serious problem.  You are apparently willing to accept a statement from Avraham without checking it.  Avraham apparently gets most of his information about the New Testament from unbelievers' commentaries.

Next, why is extensive quoting from the Tanach a weak point?

Now, you must not know then that Avraham IS WRONG in both statements.  The Gospels, as books, are not mentioned anywhere in the New Testament past Acts, which, of course, being written by Luke, refers to his earlier "treatise".  Only the names of three of the Gospel writers, Mark, Luke and John receive mention in the Epistles.

On the other hand, the Epistles do refer to the Gospel accounts without mentioning the book by name.  Acts records a number of cases where the apostles, including Paul, were cognizant of and obedient to Jesus' commands recorded in the Gospels, such as Acts 13:51.  Luke 10:7 IS DIRECTLY QUOTED as "scripture", along with Deuteronomy 25:4, in I Timothy 5:18.  I Corinthians 13:2 refers to Jesus' teaching of faith that moves mountains from Matthew 17:20 & 21:21.  I Timothy 6:13 refers to what is recorded in John 18:37.  II Timothy 2:12 gives an indirect quote (changing first person to third person) of Matthew 10:33.  James 5:12 is a paraphrase of Jesus' teaching in Matthew 5:34-37.  I Peter 3:14 is a paraphrase of Matthew 5:10.  John, in his three epistles, refers to his Gospel several times.
#10
"I have learned quite a lot and have ridden myself of many misconceptions about xtianity."

First of all, I am very glad to hear that, that I have not just been talking to a computer screen.

"Why do xtians refer to jc as the "paschal lamb" when it was a sign of killing one of the Egyptian dieties?"

I wasn't quoting the verse about the veil.  I was making a personal observation that you have a veil.  God said He would bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12), but how did you decide that the lamb was a god of Egypt?  Besides, what the Egyptians thought of the lamb is irrelevant to what God says the lamb is.  Why should you take that idea and make a difficulty for Jesus to be the Passover Lamb.  I did not call Jesus that.  The New Testament calls Jesus our Passover (I Corinthians 5:7).  Would you say that a shepherd is caring for an Egyptian deity?  Of course not.  Then why say that Jesus cannot be the Passover Lamb because that would be making Jesus an Egyptian deity.  When you invent unnecessary difficulties and obstacles like that, I see that your mind is veiled.

I do not feel quite the same way about your question about Jesus being the Prophet and part of the Godhead at the same time.  I can understand that confusion.  The question of who God is, who Jesus Christ is, and how they relate, is as complex as God Himself.  There are a lot of mysteries in the Tanach related to God, that are dismissed by theologians as "anthropomorphisms".  Why just fly through those mysteries with the greatest of ease, but get stuck on the questions of Jesus Christ?  It is clear in the New Testament that Jesus and the Father are NOT the same person. Even the Trinity doctrine does not say that.  Jesus prayed to the Father as a man, as God's Son, not to himself.  And if YOU will notice, Jesus did not take credit for anything Jesus did either.


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