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Nations for Gesus
#21
Hi ThomasDGW

Quote:The only reason to dwell on technicalities to make David actually not fully guilty is to try to explain how a deliberate sin such as that could be put away.  It is the righteousness that comes by faith even to a violator of the Law.  David was saved by his faith in Jesus.  Only the new birth of the Messiah's sacrificial death could explain how that could happen, and since the rabbis reject such a concept, they are left to massage legal technicalities to explain it away.

Well David did sin, most Rabbi's and commentaries agree on that. (maybe there are other commentaries that I don't know of that try to proof that he didn't).
Mainly David was ''punished'' with all the difficulties that he had to deal with, by his sons, like Abshalom for example (as the result of that specific mother).

Also Moses did sin, and he was not allowed to enter the promised land, but I guess He is ''in heaven'' or at least allowed to be with The Almighty for the rest of his future life...

In Judaism we don't claim that all sins will be forgiven, like in the story with Moses, some sins will have results.
I guess (not sure), that Christians have the tendency that ‘sins have to be forgiven now, and completely in order to enter heaven’. This is not what God did always, and so I guess that even a Messiah does not have to be completely sinless. (nobody is Good except for God only). (sinning in Hebrew mainly does mean to miss your goal, like lazyness, or not doing what God told you to do, it also can mean ‘doing the bad thing’).

I can understand Revelations in that sence that ‘The Lamb of God is slaughtered before the beginning of the World’. That’s included in the eternal way of thinking, so maybe even Jesus role is not that important than, for it doesn’t have to be have done specifically 1977 years ago. But that David did it because of his believe in Jesus, is somewhat far fetched and hard to proof. Maybe David was saved for his good intentions and good deads, and because The Almighty anyway promised Jews to be saved (it’s hard for The Almighty not to keep His promises). At least that is written, not some vague theology that he believed in Jesus who still had to come. And is it Jesus that saves people, or is that not the task of The Almighty Himself?
#22
"The only reason to dwell on technicalities"

Is because it is a legal system. That's almost the entire polemic against us in the new testament. They even call us "lawyer's".

I do not understand your point?



Avraham
#23
Yetzirah, I know that rabbis agree that David sinned, but the emphasis is that it was a DELIBERATE sin (II Samuel 12:9), that normally could not be forgiven under the Torah (Numbers 15:30-31).  This is the puzzle that I believe that the rabbis cannot answer, which puzzle the New Testament answers.  Looking at Psalm 51, in which David describes how he was cleansed of sin, that matches the salvation of Jesus perfectly.  That, with the confirmation of Romans gives me the confidence to say David was saved by his faith in Jesus.

Avraham, Jesus did NOT say that thinking about adultery made one an adulterer, but rather that if one looks on a woman to lust after her, then he is an adulterer.  David became an adulterer on the roof top, not in bed with Bathsheba, although the Torah did not specify punishment at that time since that would have been impossible for human judges to enforce.  Indeed it might be hard for ourselves to judge of ourselves, whether we looked on a woman with adulterous intent or simply a passing, rejected thought.

The main point, however, is the difference between deliberate sin and accidental sin.
#24
"Avraham, Jesus did NOT say that thinking about adultery made one an adulterer, but rather that if one looks on a woman to lust after her, then he is an adulterer." 

Hello Thomas,
As usual you are mincing words. Lust is a thought in the mind not an action.

“We are here taught, that there is such a thing as heart-adultery, adulterous thoughts, all lusting after the forbidden objects; this is the beginning of the sin, lust conceiving (James 1:15);”
Mathew Henry

Adultera mens est—The mind is debauched. Ovid

The Bible says an adulterer cannot go to heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21).

If King David was an adulterer did he go to heaven?


Avraham
#25
Avraham Wrote:"Avraham, Jesus did NOT say that thinking about adultery made one an adulterer, but rather that if one looks on a woman to lust after her, then he is an adulterer." 

Hello Thomas,
As usual you are mincing words. Lust is a thought in the mind not an action.

“We are here taught, that there is such a thing as heart-adultery, adulterous thoughts, all lusting after the forbidden objects; this is the beginning of the sin, lust conceiving (James 1:15);”
Mathew Henry

Adultera mens est—The mind is debauched. Ovid

The Bible says an adulterer cannot go to heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21).

If King David was an adulterer did he go to heaven?


Avraham
2Sa:12:9: Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight?  thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
THE ABOVE IS 2 SIN'S MURDER AND ADULTRY

2Sa:12:10: Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa:12:11: Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
THE ABOVE IS THE PUNISHMENT

2Sa:12:12: For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
DAVID REPENTED.

2Sa:12:13: And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD.  And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
HIS SON DIED.HIS DEAR BABY WAS TAKEN FROM HIM.
IF HE HAD NOT REPENTED THAN HE WOULD HAVE PERISHED.
CAN YOU POSSIBLY SEE THAT DESIRING TO LAY WITH SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOUR WIFE OR HUSBAND DOES HARM.
ARE YOU MARRIED AVRAHAM? CARNAL, RULED BY YOUR LOINS!

You WROTE:As usual you are mincing words. Lust is a thought in the mind not an action.

WHAT ARE YOU in the EYES OF GOD IF YOU ARE THINKING OF MURDERING SOMEONE.

"Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight?"
DAVID SUFFERED TERRIBLY FOR ADULTERY.
AVRAHAM, DAVID did not go to heaven until his Messiah JESUS died for his past sins. David wrote about it. DAVID's SALVATION IS THE LORD. His own righteousness was not good enough in Gos's eyes.
Psalms:16:10: For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
1.David speaks of HIMSELF and 2. David speak of HIS MESSIAH, the LORD.
M't:22:43
#26
Yetzirah231 Wrote:As a Jew I did read the Christian Testament in different languages.
And also came often on the text that in Jesus it doesn't mather if you are Jew, Greek, woman or man. Off course women and men are still different.

But if it doesn't mather that much, why than even create a group ''Jews for Jesus'' (even the name is a trendmark as if others outside the group can't call themselves Jews for Jesus?).
Why is it so important to be Jewish as a Jew for Jesus? Is that still special? Why do the JFJ's have to go especially to Jews to borther them if Greeks are the same?

Why not join other groups like you can find:
''workers for Jesus''
''hookers for Jesus''
''nations for Jesus''
''world for Jesus'' etc. if it doesn't mather anyway if YOU are Jewish or not.

That they ''need'' to go to Jews is one obsession, but if youre identity in Christ is not important, why call yourself a Jew for Jesus???
Jesus of Nazareth is a Jew. There is a man or women out there who will receive it with great joy.


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