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Hebrew Israelite questions
#91
(07-16-2013, 11:59 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Israel would be better off in Torah-based theocracy. In fact, we see in Tanakh the constant struggle between righteous and evil Kings and the impact on the 2 kingdoms, Judah and Israel. Judah prospered under Torah, and righteous kings.

One could argue that Christianity failed as well with the expansion of the Holy Roman Empire, the loss of Jerusalem to the Moslems, and the fall of other Christian countries like Spain from the level of Super powers. The US is on the way down too.

Christianity is worldwide though and one of the largest faiths throughout history. Christians don't need theocracy until the second coming.

However, your claim that Israel would be better off with theocracy remains to be seen, seeing as they were scattered so many times due to sin. Really, it isn't theocracy that would place Israel in a better state, Judaism today in Israel has to be holier than the ancestors of the past otherwise you will just get scattered a third time.
#92
MessianicJew Wrote:Struggling? Based on what?...Averages hide what the rest of the USA is capable of.

Based on rising prices, a weaker dollar, high unemployment, and racial divisiveness, among other categories. I acknowledged that some states are ok, but the US is a far cry from what it once was.

MessianicJew Wrote:Excuses. Temple One collapsed under Theocracy.

It collapsed because it stopped acting like a Torah theocracy. It thrived under David and Solomon, and picked up again around Hezekiah’s time, but ultimately fell because it deviated from Torah values.

MessianicJew Wrote:A few [states permit gay marriage], but again the USA consists of 50 states. Not the size of New Jersey or El Santiago.

It’s still a problem in your Christian country, especially in a state the size of California. It’s illegal in Israel, despite the parades of depravity.

MessianicJew Wrote:An Egyptian and Edomite is prevented from believing in Elohim? Show me where this is written.

That is not what I believe, nor is there a verse which says this. This question is a follow-up from what you said. According to you, “the Congregation of G-D” refers to “those who believe [in G-D]” (above, 6/4/13), and to enter the Congregation of G-D means “to worship with Israel in the presence of others” (above, 6/11/13). Logically, then, you would have to believe that Deut 23:7-8 forbids Egyptians and Edomites from worshipping G-D immediately, and that 23:1 forbids certain blemished individuals from ever worshipping G-D. Thus, “entering the Congregation” cannot be just what one believes, but rather speaks of who can or cannot convert to Judaism.

MessianicJew Wrote:Christianity is worldwide though and one of the largest faiths throughout history.

And that's why the End of Days prophecies are unique. If the Nazarene was the Messiah, it wouldn't be such a big deal because so many people worldwide already believe in him. However, when Israel is exalted in the End of Days (Daniel 7:27), the nations will shut their mouths in amazement (Isaiah 52:15, Micah 7:16), because it will be so shocking that such a tiny, despised people are really G-D's People.
#93
(07-17-2013, 04:46 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(07-16-2013, 11:59 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Israel would be better off in Torah-based theocracy. In fact, we see in Tanakh the constant struggle between righteous and evil Kings and the impact on the 2 kingdoms, Judah and Israel. Judah prospered under Torah, and righteous kings.

One could argue that Christianity failed as well with the expansion of the Holy Roman Empire, the loss of Jerusalem to the Moslems, and the fall of other Christian countries like Spain from the level of Super powers. The US is on the way down too.

Christianity is worldwide though and one of the largest faiths throughout history. Christians don't need theocracy until the second coming.

However, your claim that Israel would be better off with theocracy remains to be seen, seeing as they were scattered so many times due to sin. Really, it isn't theocracy that would place Israel in a better state, Judaism today in Israel has to be holier than the ancestors of the past otherwise you will just get scattered a third time.
This is where I disagree. When Israel's kings focused on Hashem,theocracy, things went well. When they didn't, apostasy and exile.
#94
(07-18-2013, 08:34 AM)benyosef Wrote: Based on rising prices, a weaker dollar, high unemployment, and racial divisiveness, among other categories. I acknowledged that some states are ok, but the US is a far cry from what it once was.

We have 50 states, all of which could be a nation on their own. High unemployment? It is at 7%! And that is average of 50 states. CA byitself was once the 8th largest economy in the world. So once again you're basing your bias on averages.

(07-18-2013, 08:34 AM)benyosef Wrote: It collapsed because it stopped acting like a Torah theocracy. It thrived under David and Solomon, and picked up again around Hezekiah’s time, but ultimately fell because it deviated from Torah values.

That is about right, and the Judaism of today is just an "act".

(07-18-2013, 08:34 AM)benyosef Wrote: It’s still a problem in your Christian country, especially in a state the size of California. It’s illegal in Israel, despite the parades of depravity.

The US isn't a 'Christian country' it was 'created by' Christians, Tel Aviv was voted gay friendliest in the world: http://www.jpost.com/LifeStyle/Tel-Aviv-...y-for-2011

(07-18-2013, 08:34 AM)benyosef Wrote: And that's why the End of Days prophecies are unique. If the Nazarene was the Messiah, it wouldn't be such a big deal because so many people worldwide already believe in him. However, when Israel is exalted in the End of Days (Daniel 7:27), the nations will shut their mouths in amazement (Isaiah 52:15, Micah 7:16), because it will be so shocking that such a tiny, despised people are really G-D's People.

That makes zero sense, and is more spin tactic. The prophecy is that the Gentiles will seek Messiah, the only Jew they've sought for over 2000 years is Jesus Christ.

You don't even keep the Passover and you're trying to believe that you will be included in Daniel 7:27, and Micah 7:16 that is wishful thinking at best.
#95
(07-18-2013, 08:30 PM)Nachshon Wrote: This is where I disagree. When Israel's kings focused on Hashem,theocracy, things went well. When they didn't, apostasy and exile.

That proves that keeping the law as it should be would not happen for future generations, they couldn't do it back then, and you haven't either. Just watch, Israel will move back toward the law and all your woes will come upon you, and all your excuses = if only Israel would be more Holy everything would be fine.

Because that is all the excuse you have, that Israel 'just isn't Holy enough'. It is the same excuse of the Muslim.

What naive behavior, to actually think you could do what your ancestors could not which is walk straight before Elohim in obedience.
#96
(08-11-2013, 06:58 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(07-18-2013, 08:30 PM)Nachshon Wrote: This is where I disagree. When Israel's kings focused on Hashem,theocracy, things went well. When they didn't, apostasy and exile.

That proves that keeping the law is impossible, they couldn't do it, and you can't either. Just watch, Israel will move back to the law and all your woes will come upon you, and all your excuses = if only Israel would be more like me. Everything would be fine.

Because that is all the excuse you have, that Israel 'just isn't Holy enough'. It is the same excuse of the Muslim.

What naive behavior, to actually think you could do what your ancestors could not which is walk straight before Elohim in obedience.
Go back and read. Israel had righteous kings and periods where they lived in peace and fulfilled Hashem's Torah. I think you're being naive.
#97
MessianicJew Wrote:We have 50 states…you're basing your bias on averages.

This part of our discussion has run its course. You accused Israel of being a lousy country, and I simply replied that every country has issues. The current State of Israel is not what was promised to us by the Creator via His prophets, but was a temporary gift that started on the wrong foot because secular Zionists had a major say in its establishment.

MessianicJew Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:If the Nazarene was the Messiah, it wouldn't be such a big deal because so many people worldwide already believe in him. However, when Israel is exalted in the End of Days (Daniel 7:27), the nations will shut their mouths in amazement (Isaiah 52:15, Micah 7:16), because it will be so shocking that such a tiny, despised people are really G-D's People.

That makes zero sense, and is more spin tactic. The prophecy is that the Gentiles will seek Messiah, the only Jew they've sought for over 2000 years is Jesus Christ. You don't even keep the Passover and you're trying to believe that you will be included in Daniel 7:27, and Micah 7:16 that is wishful thinking at best.

It makes zero sense because…?

The prophecy does not say the Gentiles will seek anybody except the Jews and say, “Let us go with you for we have heard G-D is with you” (Zechariah 8:23). There is absolutely no mention of Gentiles seeking the Messiah, and no mention of people following the Christians in the End of Days. Think about it: If the Christians were right about J, why would Zechariah tells us the nations will come to the Jews? We would be the last people they should come to.

I am not so brazen to suggest I will be included in these descriptions of the Jews in the End of Days, though that is certainly a goal of mine. My point was that prophecy is not logical guesswork, but declaring things that no one in their right mind would try to predict. If J was the Messiah, these prophecies would not be unique because of how many people already have fallen for the story. But Israel to be exalted in the End of Days? Who would have believed such a thing??
#98
(08-12-2013, 12:36 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Go back and read. Israel had righteous kings and periods where they lived in peace and fulfilled Hashem's Torah. I think you're being naive.

That right there shows you're still relying on yourselves. The whole message from the New Covenant and Christ is that no matter if Israel had righteous Kings for a time, it would never stay that way perpetually because the sin nature of the flesh eventually causes disobedience.

With Christ who is the King of Kings there is never exile and always peace. He sends the Holy Spirit to infuse with your very soul and gives you a new heart with new desires you no more have an evil eye for example.
#99
One of the most important, and most repeated, messages in the Torah is that we have the ability to overcome our inclination to sin and achieve great heights (an idea recorded as early as Genesis 4:7). The fact that many have stumbled is not a contradiction to this, for many have also succeeded. If we were inherently sinful and unable to overcome, then why would G-D threaten the Jews with severe consequences for not keeping the Torah? And we see that He kept His promise for over 1400 years! Any time the Jews deviated from their loyalty to Torah, He would send armies and famine to get us to right our ways. Why, if we were inherently incapable? It makes no sense for Him to do that.

Gavriel Eli, does G-D promise that by believing in the Messiah we will have personal peace and individual tranquility (despite the conditions of the world)? In fact, no. Not only does G-D never tell us we need to believe in or accept the Messiah, but when G-D speaks of the Messianic Age, He promises worldwide situations, not just personal. You say you have peace, yet we are told that there will be worldwide peace (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:4). You say you are not in exile, yet G-D promises a complete return of Jewish exiles to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6, Ezekiel 37:21). Although you and other Evangelicals are telling the Jews to worship the Nazarene, G-D promises that instead of missionaries bothering Israel, all mankind will come to the Jews and ask them how to worship G-D (Jeremiah 31:34, Isaiah 2:2-3, 66:23, Zechariah 8:23).

You’re certainly free to believe what you want. If you wish to come to us and tell that your messiah fulfilled Biblical messianic prophecy, then why haven’t any of the verifiable elements of the Messianic Era come to fruition?


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