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Jesus the Messiah?
#1
Ezekiel 37 Reads:
verses:
A. 19: All the tribes will be united
B. 21: They will be returned to the land of Israel,
C. 22: where they will be one nation, with one king, and will be
undivided.
D. 23: There will be no idolatry, and sin, for the L-RD will save
them.
E. 23: They will be G-d's people
F. 24: The king will be a servant of G-d and he will be king over
them.
G. 24: Everyone will follow the laws and be careful to keep all the
decrees.
H. 25: This will be forever.
I. 26: There will be a contract of peace, forever, and they will be
increased.
J. 26 & 27: There will be a new Temple which will stand forever.
K. 28: All the nations will know who G-d is and who will make Israel
holy

Points to consider:
i.) There is not one prophecy about a second coming in the OT.
a.) This means that Deut. 13.2-6 and Deut. 18 are relevant now.

ii.) This is a major prophecy in the bible, and it is not mentioned
once in the NT.
iii.) Not one of these prophecies has come true since the time of
Solomon's death (when the Northern and Southern Kingdoms split)
(although to some extent prophecies B and C is being fulfilled to some
extent in part.- not by Jesus)
iv.) Jesus is not mentioned here at all.
v.) G. is certainly not been fulfilled by Jesus or any Christian.  This is a precondition. For fulfillment of G is essential and nor is I-K.

Let me help you out with the beginning
Prophecy A (Ezekiel 37:19)

A.) The tribes of Israel are united.

This means that there are 12 tribes in Israel (currently the 10 Tribes that were exiled in the First Temple Period have not returned, and are not united.

Now you have to show that Jesus fulfilled this.

Something to think about.

Dannyil
#2
Dannyil Wrote:. . .
D. 23: There . . . save
them. How?
. . .
This reads very much like an outline of Revelation.

Points . . . OT.
Sure there is. The OT says that the Messiah, who will be born in Bethlehem, will come riding a donkey into Jerusalem and will have an eternal reign. Psalms and Isaiah describe His crucifixion. And when He comes back again, He will reign on Earth again in His Temple.

You missed the first coming. At the end of his book, Ezekiel describes the second coming.

The seed of the serpent will bruise His heel, but He will crush the serpent's head. How do you see this prophecy playing out?


a.) This . . . now.
When God redeemed Moses and all from Egypt, what did He have to give up and to whom did He give it?

ii.) This . . . NT.
You haven't read Revelation, I guess.

iii.) Not . . .not by Jesus--Can you prove that Yeshua isn't doing it?)
It's in process. We haven't had the second coming yet. Once again, read Revelation. Assuming that you are a Jew who doesn't believe in Yeshua, it was written for you.

See 2Chron 11:3.


iv.) Jesus . . . all.
Depends. I see in your line F that it says, "The king will be a servant of G-d and he will be king over them." That would be my Yeshua. Or do you know someone else who can fit all the prophecies about the Messiah and have an eternal throne?

v.) G. . . . I-K.
Interesting, because the end of Ezekiel says that God brings you back because of His name's sake, not because of your following the law. In fact, it doesn't sound very flattering. It says Israel profaned His name in the Diaspora. Who's name are they profaning to this day?

But I don't see why you say G is an precondition. A precondition to what? Also, which laws? Shlomo has already said that Jews haven't kept the laws. And he didn't have an answer for how God makes you kosher again when you become treif from your sin.


Let . . . united.
I've heard this. I don't understand how you would know this though. How do you know that they haven't? Doesn't 2Chronicles11 say that all 12 tribes are represented in Judah and Benjamin? All Israel would be the 12 tribes, wouldn't it?

Now you have to show that Jesus fulfilled this. Prove that He isn't.
I don't know whether this is accomplished yet or not. But certainly the Jews are being regathered. You ask where is Yeshua in all of this. I'd say, look at Israel. This is exactly what Revelation said would happen. I mean, you can't seal 12,000 from each tribe without having the tribes represented in some way, right?
#3
Are you concerned about Messiah's return to establish his kingdom?

Are you more concerned as to what Messiah would accomplish?

What about the gentiles in need of salvation, that are not natural Jews by lineage?

As  christian's we are not looking for utopia, we accept forgiveness from G_d through Jesus sacrifice, for we know we are not Holy enough to escape Sheoul on our own.

You have set your own criteria for your version of Messiah that completely ignores the major and minor prophets and David the King.


Psalm 2
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psalm 110
[2] The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Psalm 8
[6] Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Y'shua is Lord and will return as He promised.

Hebrews 11
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

What is the reward? His revelation to us by the Holy Spirit.

Have you seen Messiah or G_d himself?

Hebrews 2
[8] Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Zechariah 12
[10] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.



Shalom



#4
There is nothing to think about. You do not know how to interpret the word of God. There are two comings the first was to offer Himself as a living sacrifice and to get a kingdom of kings and priest. He came to save you from going to hell. For nothing unholy or impure will ever enter into His presence. No flesh or blood will inherit the kingdom of God no one who does evil. Now behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Here is were you make your decision for the future. Jesus came to establish a kingdom the first time the second time is to fulfilled all that you have mention were of his kingdom will be no end. Now tell me who is the one Isaiah 52-53 is talking about. Isaiah 53:4-7{{Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
5.  But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
6.  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth.}} This is but a fraction of all that is said about your Messiah. You have been waiting two thousand years don't you think it strange this tell you something at all. Open your eyes Jesus-Yeshua is the only true Messiah, the one that the Jews will accept will be the false Messiah he you will receive. But not all Jews will receive the false Christ. The Bible tells us that there will be 144,000 12,000 from every tribe of Jacob, who will not bow dawn to this false Messiah, they will deliver the Gospel to the whole world. Than Yeshua will establish His Kingdom from Israel, since we obey Him and accepted His perfect sacrifice for our sins, we will rule and reign with Him. Now is that clear to you yet. Tell me what is missing and I’ll fix it with the word of God-Yahweh. Anna

#5
to revelation320:
Imagine your Great-great grandfather is the Messiah.  When he came to the earth, nothing was fulfilled in Prophecies A-K.  But there is a Second Coming.  That means your Great-great grandfather will come a second time and fulfill the prophecies.
Lets be real.  Jesus was never the king, he did not rule a government, he was not anointed with oil, he was not involved at all with any kingly duties.  The opposite, he was executed by the Romans according to the NT.  The Romans did not even set him up to be a puppet king, as was Herod's dynasty after Herod died in 4 BCE.  
The point is that the law is to be followed and obeyed.  That is what Eze. is pointing out.  Whether or not people do it is irrelevant.  If I see anyone claiming to be the Messiah, or followers thereof, I expect then to see them following the law. QED. Points A-K are clear. They have not happened yet, by any stretch of the imagination.  Now I see from all of this (Eze. 37) no mention of a second coming.  Now, why?  If I'm Jew living in 130 BCE, I expect that the Messiah will come and do these things.  Jesus comes, and the opposite happens, - there are massive wars, chaos, the Temple is destroyed, and I'm now expected to believe in the second coming, and yet there is no mention of it anywhere in the OT.  As a side point, Revelations is written long after Jesus, possibly around 120 CE (2nd Century) meaning, this is later idea.
2 Chronicles 11 says nothing about a united group of Jews.  All it speaks about is the Jews living in Judea and Benjamin - meaning it includes Levites who lived in the same area.  It is not saying that Benajmin and Yehudah are now Israelites.  It is referring to everyone in those *areas*.
Jesus is not here now.  I do not see him at all.  I do see Jews returning to their homeland.  They are mostly Jews who believe in G-d, and not Jesus.
Also, Why do I have to bring a Messiah as proof?  Nevertheless, the Messiah is going to come.  That is a major principal in Judaism.  That means it has not happened yet. QED.
The reason why G-d does what He does, is again, immaterial.  What concerns me is the prophecies are they fulfilled or not.
What difference does it make whether or not people are fulfilling the laws or not?  I'm not claiming that Eze. 37 has been fulfilled, Christianity is, by saying that Jesus is the Messiah.  I expect the Messiah to rebuild the Temple and bring world peace.  He has not done so, that means the Messiah is still coming.  Christians say no;  that there is a second coming idea.  This is not an answer but subterfuge - meaning I'm right, Jesus did not fulfill these things, but he will.  But this is contrary to the expectation.  Therefore he is more likely to be a false-prophet, a non-prophet than  a messiah still to come.  
-Danny
#6
to cor517:
I quoted Eze. 37:19-end.  See what Eze. 37 is talking about and then get back to me.

Lee1000 you missed the question.  You quoted other prophecies.  We're discussing Eze. 37.  Try again.

-Danny
#7
Part 1 of 2

Danny:

If Jews have done nothing different since Babylon, then they are still in some way displeasing to God, which would coincide with what Ezekiel says about God reuniting them for His name's sake and not for anything they have done--that is, their righteousness is found wanting.

The Diaspora is important for two reasons: one, it shows that the Jews have displeased God in some severe way (2000+ years is a long time to be separated from Him); and two, it fulfills another prophecy of Ezekiel's.

The length of the Diaspora predicted by Ezekiel and Moses:
“Now lie on your left side and place the sins of Israel on yourself. You are to bear their sins for the number of days you lie there on your side. You will bear Israel’s sins for 390 days – one day for each year of their sin. After that, turn over and lie on your right side for 40 days – one day for each year of Judah’s sin.” Ezekiel 4:4-6

We already know that the Jews have not obeyed God; once again, Ezekiel says as much when he writes that God unites them for His name's sake even though they don't deserve it. But Moses records God say four times:

“And if in spite of this, you still disobey me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.” Leviticus 26:18. This is repeated in Leviticus 26:21, Leviticus 26:23-24, and Leviticus 26:27-28.

Israel is punished 360 years times seven (the 360 being what they still had left to serve from the 430 decreed - the 70 served in Babylon), which leaves 907,200 days (working on the 360 day calendar).

Cyrus makes his proclamation in 537 B.C. Add your 907,200 to that and what year do you have? 1948!


This shows three things: one, the seventy weeks of Daniel are interrupted (stopped at the crucifixion at the end of the 69th week); two, that in order to interpret prophecy, you sometimes have to connect two parts of scripture to understand it. I would say that it is short-sighted and faithless to make a ruling about Yeshua from Ezekiel 37 only.
#8
Part 2 of 2 to Danny

Also, you have a problem with the law: Enoch, a gentile, was taken away before judgment because of his righteousness apart from law. Abram was called out of the gentiles apart from his righteousness from the law. Noah, another gentile, was called righteous and saved apart from the law. And the Jews that God redeemed in Egypt were redeemed apart from the righteousness of the law. Your interpretation of righteousness, especially in light of God's condemnation of the Jews' disobedience in Ezekiel, is in question. It is very possible that Christians have found what the Jews had found so long ago: righteousness apart from law that fulfills the commands of the Lord.

In Judaism who names a king? I see in Samuel that God names him. You are right that Yeshua was not acknowledged as king by the Jews (though Pilate called Him King of the Jews), but God did call Him. I don't see anywhere in Tanach where rabbis have to confirm the word of the Lord. In fact, I see places in Jewish history from Tanach where the Jewish leaders were saying something different than God's prophets. In fact, I see a connection to the Diaspora to this.

You say that Messiah is still to come. You are right. You missed the first go around. He cams and was despised, bearing your iniquities unto death the first time, and yet, in the same chapter (Isaiah 53) we see that He will be given spoil and that "great" and "strong" is the condition of the servant after His death. This speaks of His resurrection. He has not yet been given His spoils: that will happen in the second coming, as foretold by David (Psalm 110--I'm assuming that you will agree that God's right hand is in heaven, that is, that the Lord at the right hand had died). Do you have anything that actively shows that I am wrong?

BTW, I don't buy your explanation of 2Chron11:3. Where is your explanation of how we are to know the tribes?

And it is very important how God redeems. Read Isaiah 52. It won’t be with money, which suggests it will be with something else. The death of the servant—Isaiah 53.

Isaiah 59:1-8 goes along with Ezekiel’s “name’s sake” and Moses’ words in Leviticus to explain why rabbinical Judaism fails. Works don’t cut it.
#9
Part 1.

If Jews have done nothing different...
We have.

The Diasp...
It is a tikkun - it is a way of fixing mistakes.
In other words, it shows the opposite - we're making things right, not making things more wrong.

The length of the Diaspora...
This is known only to G-d.
Everyone agrees that 1948 is not by any stretch of the imagination, remotely connected with the prophecies of old.
Why? Since the creation of the state, there has been more deaths of Jews, there is more instability, there is not world peace.  the Israeli government is notoriously anti-religious.

G-d always forgives, he is open always to forgiveness.  G-d
punishes the Jewish people like a Father punishes a child - to effect change, and to create a relationship.  G-d is not a vengeful massacist.

Your calculation shows that the Diaspora will end in: 906663 years.
Also, nobody told anyone that you're supposed to use a Persian Calendar.  I have an idea.  lets stop predicting the end, and do what G-d says. see Deuteronomy 4.

This shows...
It shows nothing...
all it shows is that you're interpreting the bible the way you want.
#10
Part 1 continued.

First of all...

1. The reason that Ezekiel 37 was chosen is because it is
clear, precise, and is a central prophecy.  Anyone, who goes through the entire Tanakh, will come to Ezekiel 37, and discover that this is a central set of prophecies.  You don't need to be a rocket scientist for that.

2. Anyone who wishes I can present them with a chart that explains that.

3. The prophecy in Ezekiel 37 is symptomatic of all OT prophecies - meaning, if there is a second coming, I expect it to be mentioned *explicitly* in the text.  If its not there, it must be there is no second coming.

Lets give this analogy:
a King is riding past a forest and finds a bullseye neatly in a tree.
he stops and has a look around, and
notices all the bullseyes have an arrow squarely placed in the
middle.  The king is in wonder - so many trees
so many bullseyes, with arrows in the middle.  This must be an expert
archer.
He begins to seek out the archer... and low, and behold, he finds him
after many hours, he spots him
what is our archer doing?  He takes his arrow and bow, shoots into a
nearby tree, and then paints a bullseye around the arrow
He wastes no time, and the next tree, he goes shoots an arrow, and
then paints a bullseye around the arrow.

You are the archer.  You have a preconceived notion of what the text
says (the arrow), and then you paint a picture around it to suit it,
and then you find sources to support it (painting the bullseye around
the arrow).

Ask yourself:  Is this what the text is saying, or is it *my
interpretation* of what the text *aught* to be saying?

Danny


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