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Why the notion of a “Second Coming” is not acceptable
#11
ThomasDGW Wrote:…Isaiah 53 speaks of a sin bearing death as well as a victorious end. The Messiah cannot do both…at one time.

We can deduce the Messianic elements through the method of “clear and consistent,” whereby every aspect of the End of Days is clearly spelled out and mentioned several times, not just once. To cite a few:
Worldwide peace (Isa 2:4, Mic 4:3)
Universal knowledge of G-D (Jer 31:34, Isa 66:23, Isa 11:9)
Ingathering of exiles (Isa 43:6, Jer 23:3, Ezk 37:21)
The concept of the Messiah dying for our sins is not clearly articulated, nor is there a “source” beside Isa 53. Neither is there a clear mention of a messianic “second coming,” no mention of his “return.” If there was such an idea, then how can anyone be labeled a “false messiah?” We would simply say that they will return and accomplish the prophecies!

ThomasDGW Wrote:when the Messiah comes…are you going to be completely skeptical and uncooperative with a candidate until he brings everything to a victorious conclusion…?

Does the Torah ever say we need to identify and declare he is the Messiah before he does what he needs to do? Does he need our cheers?

Thomas Wrote:I know that many rabbis teach that the Messiah will come when the conditions of the hearts of Jews is right. That does seem to require that there would be an acceptance of the Messiah when He comes. If that were not the case, the Messiah could come at any time, and yet He is not here.

I’m not sure which rabbis you are speaking of. Nowhere in the rabbinic literature I’ve seen even remotely suggests that we will need to “believe” in the Messiah. You are correct that he could come at any time, but the fact that he’s not here yet does not pose a theological problem; we have not yet earned him. This is the explanation for the seemingly inconsistent messianic comings: if the Jews are worthy enough to earn his arrival, he comes as described in Dan 7:13-14. If not, and G-D needs to send him, then he arrives like Zec 9:9.
#12
Azriel Wrote:Daniel 9; 26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks """Messiah shall be cut off""", but not for Himself;

If this is such a crucial prophecy that J fulfilled, one would think the NT would mention it.
Nevertheless, Daniel 9 does not tell us anything about the Messiah. Sure, the word “anointed” (מָשִׁיחַ) appears twice, it is clear they are different people: the first is a prince, and the second arrives after the 62 weeks and suffers a death reserved for unrighteous people (the phrase “cut off” in Torah refers to those who commit grave misdeeds, never to holy people).
In fact, when Daniel does speak of the Messiah, he is told the timeline will be unable to discern (Dan 12:4-12). It in incongruous to suggest that in Dan 12 he is told to not reveal the time, yet in Dan 9 we are told explicitly the Messianic timeline.

MessianicJew Wrote:Except God never says that it is impossible not to recognize the Messiah…approaching 2,000 years without Messiah is then acceptable?

That is a confusing line: G-D never says it is impossible not to recognize…? Where does G-D say we are supposed to recognize the Messiah? G-D spends more time talking about the worldwide changes than He does about this lone individual. We’ll know he’s here because Hamas suddenly doesn’t want to kill Israelis, there are no more missionaries, and our righteous great-great-grandparents are again walking the earth.

The Torah tells us it will be “many days” (Hos 3:4-5). The Torah never says “the Messiah will return.” That’s why this long wait--while painful--is not a theological problem for the Jews, while the "second coming" message falls on deaf ears.
#13
It is my opinion that american christianity is responsible for this confusion.
It is out of America that flows such a stream of futuristic, fantastic stories of a future reign of their political messiah and in hoding to such nonesense they deny the reign of the Lord Jesus, His eternal reign, His kingdom souvereign, not merely of this world but a reign from Heaven far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything.

This they (american christians) do because infact they have to be instep with their anti- and nonchristian masters, those who categorically deny- and rebel against the King of kings and Lord of lords, Jesus the anointed of God. They claim to be free but I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

So along with their friends they wait for their despot messiah forgetting that our Lord Jesus said: "My Kingdom is not of this world" and “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.

I tell you there is peace in abundance but you refuse to come to Him, because you seek something external the peace He gives is His peace. He does not give to you as the world gives.

You ask about His coming, I tell you He is here and He says this: Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
#14
"Does the Torah ever say we need to identify and declare he is the Messiah before he does what he needs to do? Does he need our cheers?"

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that any time you reject a prophet of God, you are in trouble. (Numbers 12:8, Deuteronomy 18:19, Psalm 118:22)

When the Messiah comes, He is not going to let anyone stop Him. However, when He visited His people Israel 2000 years ago, He was supposed to be welcomed as Abraham welcomed his 3 guests in Genesis 18, especially when He did so many miracles of healing and corrected many errors in His teaching.
#15
A. Bird Wrote:It is my opinion that american christianity is responsible for this confusion…they deny the reign of [Jesus], His eternal reign, His a kingdom souvereign…

What confusion are you attributing to American Christianity? Surely you don’t suspect my ideology has such pagan sources, for I only quoted the Torah.

I think the confusion rests with Christendom: the Church preaches that belief in J will lead to rewards no one can prove, such as forgiveness of sin and inner peace. Many other religions make similar promises as reward for believing their man/woman/plurality is a savior, so maybe we should convert to Hare Krishna?

No, for the Torah promises tangible benefits for observing His commandments (Deut 11), as well as provable worldwide changes when the real Messiah makes the scene. Of course, there will be forgiveness of sin as well (Jer 31:34), but it will be at the same time all will know G-D (ibid.), so when the latter happens, we will know the former happened.

So, I guess the reason people do not see J has having a kingdom or sovereignty is because he was never visibly given or in possession of such gifts. Another reason is because G-D tells us that when there will again be a king, “Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely” (Jer 33:16), an aspect not yet seen.

ThomasDGW Wrote:When the Messiah comes, He is not going to let anyone stop Him. However, when He visited His people Israel 2000 years ago, He was supposed to be welcomed as Abraham welcomed his 3 guests in Genesis 18, especially when He did so many miracles of healing and corrected many errors in His teaching.

No one will stop him, but does he need to be accepted? I agree we need to hearken to G-D's prophets, but to say J is the messiah and thus a prophet, and thus warrants such acceptance, is circular. Only when a prophet is established does this rule take effect.

Where do we see that we can identify the Messiah based on his miracles? G-D warns that many false prophets will be able to perform the supernatural (Deut 13), so miracles don’t prove one’s veracity. Even Jesus was well aware of this (Mt 24:24). The question is: What did J do that he should be considered the Messiah? Miracles are irrelevant and teaching is done by many, yet the visual, tangible evidence G-D promises about the Messianic Age have not been accomplished, not by J, not by anybody else.
#16
Quote:I think the confusion rests with Christendom: the Church preaches that belief in J will lead to rewards no one can prove, such as forgiveness of sin and inner peace. Many other religions make similar promises as reward for believing their man/woman/plurality is a savior, so maybe we should convert to Hare Krishna?

Faith in Jesus is not based on "rewards no one can prove," but on the historical fact of His resurrection. Unless Jesus physically rose from the dead — not in a vegetation myth during some Before Time (as in tales of Krishna), but on a specific day in a specific city during recorded history – then faith in Him is futile. His resurrection, followed by His appearance to many people, is the essential proof of His claims and credentials.

“If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain, and you are still in your sins.” — I Corinthians 15:17

Dr. David Reagan of Lamb and Lion Ministries (http://www.lamblion.com) has pointed out:

Within 50 days after His crucifixion, Jesus' disciples had changed from a defeated, frustrated, hopeless group of individuals into a confident band of Jewish believers in Jesus determined to win the world for their Lord. [And they did so knowing that they might be executed for their evangelism, as Stephen had been, and as almost all of the first disciples and apostles eventually were.]

Jesus’ own brother, James, who didn’t believe His claims while He was alive, became the leader of the church in Jerusalem.

Peter, who had denied Him three times in a fit of cowardice, began to proclaim Him boldly, even before the very Sanhedrin Council that had condemned Jesus (Acts 4:1-12).

Paul, the most ruthless persecutor of the church, became the greatest missionary of all because he encountered the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9).

All Jesus’ opponents had to do in order to silence the Gospel was display His body — but they couldn’t. It wasn’t in the tomb. Here are theories about its disappearance:

Confusion — the disciples went to the wrong tomb. Did Joseph of Arimathea forget where his own tomb was? Did the Roman soldiers forget which tomb they had guarded? Why didn’t Jesus’ enemies simply go to the correct tomb and produce His body?

Theft — the disciples stole His body. Why? Mark 9:30-32 says that they didn’t understand that Jesus was to rise from the dead. Their despair confirms that. Would the frightened disciples have become fearless body snatchers who committed themselves to a lie?

Hallucination or hypnosis — the disciples saw what they wanted to see, an empty tomb. If it really wasn’t empty, why didn’t Jesus’ opponents display His body for everyone to see?

Fainting — Jesus didn’t really die on the cross. Who could believe that after being stabbed, scourged, crucified, and without food or water for three days, He climbed out of His burial wrappings and ran around the countryside for 40 days? And a half-dead Jesus wouldn’t have been an inspiration to His disciples.

Dr. Reagan and others have made the following points:

If Jesus’ disciples were making up this religion centered on the risen Jesus, they could have taken the easy way: They could have proclaimed His resurrection in Rome or Athens, where stories of gods interacting with humans were common and accepted; and they could have said that it was men who discovered that Jesus wasn’t in the tomb.

However, they proclaimed the risen Messiah in the heart of the Jewish world, where their message was astonishing, and where anyone who wanted to crush faith in Jesus needed only to retrieve His corpse from the tomb. And it was testimony of women that first proclaimed His resurrection, in a culture in which only men were considered credible witnesses. The disciples could have launched this “new” religion in a far easier way – but they simply told the truth, no matter the cost.

The miracle of Jesus’ resurrection is crucial to salvation. As Romans 10:9 says, “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.”
#17
(06-21-2013, 10:39 AM)b Wrote: What confusion are you attributing to American Christianity?
The confusion of this thread: The idea of a "Second Coming" is postulated (by Christian Jews & nonchristian Jews) as such an integral part of Christianity that the question of Jesus-being-Messiah is thought to rest on it. The reason for this is because the idea of a "Second Coming" is so very much adhered to in America.
(06-21-2013, 10:39 AM)b Wrote: Surely you don’t suspect my ideology has such pagan sources, for I only quoted the Torah.
In as far as your anti-Jesus ideology goes, well:
You only ever quote the Torah in reaction to American Christianity. But of course I don't blame you for it.

(06-21-2013, 10:39 AM)b Wrote: the Church preaches that belief in Jesus will lead to rewards no one can prove, such as forgiveness of sin and inner peace. 
Do you think "forgiveness of sin" and "inner peace" are such abstract things that one would not be able to see the fruit of it on earth?
His will be done on earth as is in Heaven?
Do you know Bob Dylan:
"Many try to stop me, shake me up in my mind
Say, 'Prove to me that He is Lord, show me a sign'
What kind of sign they need when it all come from within
When what’s lost has been found, what’s to come has already been?
"?
But I suppose it won't be long now until your Mr. President-messiah arrives and you have your peace enforced on you from the outside.

Building also on what MAlan wrote:
(06-22-2013, 04:18 AM)MAlan Wrote: Paul, the most ruthless persecutor of the church, became the greatest missionary of all because he encountered the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus.
and is later quoted in the book called Romans:
(06-22-2013, 04:18 AM)MAlan Wrote: “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.”

And what do you think of us?
Do you think we know merely because of these historical facts or believe just because of a future promise? No!
Salvation is now!
The Word is the same even to you b:
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Taste and see that the Lord is good;
blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.
#18
"What did J do that he should be considered the Messiah? Miracles are irrelevant and teaching is done by many, yet the visual, tangible evidence G-D promises about the Messianic Age have not been accomplished, not by J, not by anybody else."

Be careful saying miracles are irrelevant. Numbers 14:22-23 indicate that when a person sees God's miracles and does not pay attention to God's voice, he is very wrong. In Deuteronomy 29:3, Moses told Israel that in spite of the miracles they had seen in the Exodus, their heart was not ready to perceive. Maybe they got an advance version of Benyosef's post, so they could say, "Hey, we have no visual, tangible evidence that God is going to give us the Promised Land. Who is this Moses? Just another miracle working teacher. Sure, Moses turned a snake into a rod and water into blood, but so did the Egyptian magicians. Who says we have to accept or believe Moses? When I see all of Moses claims fulfilled, then I will think about believing Moses."

Deuteronomy 13 states that there might be miracles done that are not of God (for example the wonders copied by Pharaoh's magicians) and the miracles have to be accompanied by the message being consistent with God's word, not teaching people to worship false gods. What false gods did Jesus teach Israel to worship? None, of course. Then Israel was obliged to pay attention to Jesus' miracles.
#19
MAlan, faith in J is indeed based on rewards no one can verify. Can you prove that your sins were forgiven? Can you prove that your inner peace is superior to someone else’s?

The only people who saw the risen J were the disciples and 500 unnamed, unidentified people. Why didn’t he show himself to the Pharisees, to whom he said would be given this sign (Mt 12:39-40)? Why doesn’t a single historian record this event? Why is there no outside evidence for what Paul says is so crucial to the Christian faith?

Dr. Reagan says "all Jesus' opponents had to do in order to silence the Gospel was display His body," but who says they didn’t? The only source for the resurrection is the NT, which would surely not appreciate their master being proved dead beyond repair. The gospels could simply ignore the presentation of the body and continue to paint their picture of a resurrected demigod.

To say the tomb was guarded to prevent bodysnatching doesn’t solve the problem because he died about the ninth hour (Mt 27:46-50), was buried sometime that afternoon (Mk 15:42-45), and the guards did not show up until sometime the next day (Mt 27:62-66), giving anybody (friends, enemies, or anyone) plenty of time to swipe the body under cover of darkness.
#20
A. Bird Wrote:In as far as your anti-Jesus ideology goes, well: You only ever quote the Torah in reaction to American Christianity.

Which Christianity do you subscribe to, then?

A. Bird Wrote:Do you think "forgiveness of sin" and "inner peace" are such abstract things that one would not be able to see the fruit of it on earth?

No one can verify either one, nor can your belief in inner peace be proven superior to mine.
The promises surrounding the Messianic Age are not that we will have ample inner peace (it’ll be there, but that’s not an explicit promise), but rather that the world will have visible peace, the type of peace that comes from beating swords into plowshears and nations not fighting anymore (Isa 2:4).

A. Bird Wrote:And what do you think of us?

I think you will be among those who say “Our ancestors possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.” (Jer 16:19)

ThomasDGW Wrote:Be careful saying miracles are irrelevant...

Moses came to Egypt and accomplished his goal of freeing the Jews from slavery, after which “the people feared the L-RD and put their trust in Him and in Moses His servant.” (Exo 14:31). The future Messiah also has criteria surrounding his arrival, and when all is done, the Jews will surely sit at his feet and drink his words thirstily.

To say J is this promised individual when nothing has been accomplished is presumptuous. We can talk about his messiahship when he comes back.

ThomasDGW Wrote:Deut 13 states that there might be miracles done that are not of God…and the miracles have to be accompanied by the message being consistent with God's word…

Miracles by themselves have no bearing on the miracle-worker’s veracity, as you showed with the Egyptians. Deut 13 is speaking about when one has a message he claims to be prophetic, so it must be supported by a sign. Did J give a prophecy followed by a sign?

My point was that nowhere are we told we can identify the Messiah by the miracles he performed, so in the arena of determining the Messiah, miracles are irrelevant.

How does one become an accomplished prophet so that J should be considered one? How do we know that Jeremiah, Isaiah, et al, were prophets?


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