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Why the notion of a “Second Coming” is not acceptable
#21
I'm not American, by this I mean to say that a so called "second coming" is not such a big part of my understanding.
If you're interested in this you could start reading Karl Barth, a German/Swiss Theologian who, despite writing rather thoroughly on many (if not all) Christian doctrine, did not have much to say about "a second coming".
But, surely you understand that non-christian-jews, like yourself, also put emphasis on different ideas depending on where you come from. You'll find, for example, great differences between what is understood at The Central Synagogue and what is understood at The Synagogue of Yousef Abad.

(06-24-2013, 02:54 PM)benyosef Wrote: The promises surrounding the Messianic Age are not that we will have ample inner peace (it’ll be there, but that’s not an explicit promise), but rather that the world will have visible peace, the type of peace that comes from beating swords into plowshears and nations not fighting anymore (Isa 2:4).

This is very interesting. Why do you say there will be ample inner peace? Could you expand on that for me please? Why is it necessary? How will it come about? Will it be forced on me or will I be free to refuse the ample inner peace?

(06-24-2013, 02:54 PM)benyosef Wrote: I think you will be among those who say “Our ancestors possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.”

I'm sorry to say this, but you seem to be about 2000 years behind. Do you not know that from amongst the Germanic people, the Slavic people, Korean people, Japanese, Chinese, Bantu (there are too many to name!) you will hear a loud voice shouting back at you: "Amen! It is so! Our ancestors possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good. But now we call upon the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!"

(06-24-2013, 02:54 PM)benyosef Wrote: Can you prove that your inner peace is superior to someone else’s?
Come now b, who talks like that? Smile My inner peace is not in competition with you. It doesn't seek to push you over or belittle you or be superior to you or anyone.
Even with regards to wether Jesus is the Messiah, relax, no person can come to Messiah out of his own accord anyways, the Father who sent Messiah must draw that person. And Messiah will raise that person up on the last day.
#22
A. Bird Wrote:I'm not American, by this I mean to say that a so called "second coming" is not such a big part of my understanding.

That’s cool.

A. Bird Wrote:But, surely you understand that non-christian-jews, like yourself, also put emphasis on different ideas depending on where you come from. You'll find, for example, great differences between what is understood at The Central Synagogue and what is understood at The Synagogue of Yousef Abad.

True, but the core beliefs among Jews loyal to the Torah are the same.

A. Bird Wrote:This is very interesting. Why do you say there will be ample inner peace? Could you expand on that for me please? Why is it necessary? How will it come about? Will it be forced on me or will I be free to refuse the ample inner peace?

We have a promise of worldwide observable peace. From this, I assume that since there will be no more war, people will feel more at ease. Add in the promise of worldwide knowledge of G-D, and our only focus will be on His service, which naturally leads to inner peace. That’s my own understanding. And since no one can see or gauge inner peace in another person, it was not among the mentioned Messianic Age elements.

A. Bird Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:I think you will be among those who say “Our ancestors possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.”

I'm sorry to say this, but you seem to be about 2000 years behind. Do you not know that from amongst the Germanic people, the Slavic people, Korean people…you will hear a loud voice shouting back at you: "Amen! It is so! Our ancestors possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good. But now we call upon the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!"

Are you saying idolatry has been removed from the world? Is the whole world now in worship of the One True G-D?

A. Bird Wrote:
benyosef Wrote:Can you prove that your inner peace is superior to someone else’s?

Come now b, who talks like that? My inner peace is not in competition with you.

Of course not. My point wasn’t to compete, but to expand on my idea. The promise is that of tangible or observable changes in the world which will be visible to all, not just felt within the individuals in a group of “believers.”
#23
(06-28-2013, 08:50 AM)benyosef Wrote: True, but the core beliefs among Jews loyal to the Torah are the same.

I'm not so sure of this either.
Take the Chabad movement in Jerusalem for example, many of them believe that Mendel Schneerson is the Messiah. Is this a core belief? It sure is for them and they are also orthodox and "loyal to the Torah".
The only belief, that is shared by non-Christian-Jews (that I can see), whether secular, orthodox or reformed, is that they are anti-Christ i.e. anti-Jesus.

(06-28-2013, 08:50 AM)benyosef Wrote: Are you saying idolatry has been removed from the world? Is the whole world now in worship of the One True G-D?

No, I'm merely saying what I said. On top of that I think one must be blind not to take note of the fact that from every tribe and language and people and nation many call on the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not because they have been proselytized by Jews but because they've come to know Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

With regards to peace, it is interesting for me that from the comfort and affluence of American houses many non-christian-jews (and, unfortunately, also christians) shout:
"War, war, war! Look at the lack of peace!"
I am worried that when your messiah comes, you'll have to experience peace in a similar way you've experienced your lack of it; on Television!
Maybe then you will understand that lack of peace is much closer to you than Syria or Palestine.
Hopefully, then you'll consider Him who said: "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."
But untill then be sure to keep your television set on, stay tuned, you don't want to miss your promised peace, they'll inform you when it's here.
#24
A. Bird Wrote:Take the Chabad movement in Jerusalem for example, many of them believe that Mendel Schneerson is the Messiah. Is this a core belief? It sure is for them and they are also orthodox and "loyal to the Torah".
The only belief, that is shared by non-Christian-Jews (that I can see), whether secular, orthodox or reformed, is that they are anti-Christ i.e. anti-Jesus.

It is only a few Chabad individuals (percentage-wise) who believe Rav Schneerson was/is the Messiah, and they are considered almost as dangerous as Evangelical Christians (almost because they do not aggressively proselytize and they still keep the commandments); the overwhelming majority of Chabad merely look up to him much like any Jew reveres Torah giants (I have several adorning my walls). Our core beliefs remain similar: G-D brought the slave-nation Israel out of Egypt with signs and wonders, gave the entire Nation the Oral and Written Torah on Sinai, told us that Moses is our primary prophet, and gave us the Land of Israel.

Jews are not fans of Jesus, nor Krishna, Buddha, Allah, Heracles, Zeus, Mithra, Isis, rocks, trees, fishgods, et al. You only know about our feelings toward one particular false messiah because you’ve never heard of “Jews for Attis.”

A. Bird Wrote:...I think one must be blind not to take note of the fact that from every tribe and language and people and nation many call on the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not because they have been proselytized by Jews but because they've come to know Jesus...

There are certainly many gentiles who have become Noahides or even undergone full conversion to Judaism (I know a few). Conversely, many among the languages and peoples have become Muslims. It will not be until the End of Days when the entire world will know of G-D, hence Zec 8:23 and Isa 66:23.

A. Bird Wrote:…from the comfort and affluence of American houses many non-christian-jews (and, unfortunately, also christians) shout: "War, war, war! Look at the lack of peace!"

This is exactly my point. Many groups throughout history have made a claim similar to the one you’ve presented: “War? Bah! They lack peace because they believe in the wrong gods. Accept our god(s) and you’ll know peace these folks only dream of.” This is why the Torah’s promises of worldwide, identifiable peace is so remarkable. Every religion promises unverifiable peace to its adherents, but G-D promises worldwide peace that will be noticeable when “nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”

Will we need a TV to know about peace? Only to tell us this peace is indeed worldwide. I live in Chicago, where the complete absence of war will be easily recognizable. Many people know what's going on in Israel, and when Hamas turns peaceful (or disappears altogether), and when Iran's president starts singing the Jews' praises, then you will know.
#25
(07-04-2013, 09:24 AM)benyosef Wrote: ...Our core beliefs remain similar: G-D brought the slave-nation Israel out of Egypt with signs and wonders, gave the entire Nation the Oral and Written Torah on Sinai, told us that Moses is our primary prophet, and gave us the Land of Israel.

Of course, even I might agree with you on this but that would just be you and I, we cannot speak of "Our core beliefs..."
I know of many Jews who deny the existance of your "G-D", I know of Jews who hold the Torah (written or oral) to be hogwash and the whole Egypt story with it.

(07-04-2013, 09:24 AM)benyosef Wrote: Jews are not fans of Jesus, nor Krishna, Buddha, Allah, Heracles, Zeus, Mithra, Isis, rocks, trees, fishgods, et al.

Also this is not true; here you are on a Forum of Jews who are fans (as you say) of Jesus.
I have also met Jews who are fans of Buddha and Isis.

Nonetheless I'll concede that non-christian-Jews like yourself aren't necessarily anti-Christ. But surely you understand that it could seem that way taken the context of our conversation where the believe in Jesus Christ is the central question.

Again I want to point out to you that the peace you're waiting for is a peace that will be given to you by BBC and CNN.
This seems to be a small thing for you.
I tell you; the wars BBC and CNN are reporting on, are also products of men who lack inner peace, men who spew out war with every word they breathe.
The lack of peace in this world is much bigger than what you might be ready to believe. The lack of peace in this world is so big that it consumes a person, peace should be big enough to reach even the Jew in Chicago.

I'll try to post (in a separate reply) an 11min Video of a debate.
There you can clearly see where the lack of peace in this world comes from.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
#26
Y'shua - Shalom



#27
Daniel recognized prophecy still needed fulfillment while praying three times daily for a return from Babylonian captivity. He did not despair in unbelief.

shlomo Wrote:The problem here, besides that this claim could be made of any potential messiah,

If believers were relying only upon objective prophecy watching they may wither. But Jesus said "And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20b)

Christ's indwelling presence as the Holy Spirit through all the age deeply encourages the believers that He will yet be faithful. The intervening time is not wasted. We allow our beings to be permeated with the Spirit of Christ for that day of His return and reign (if we are wise).

shlomo Wrote:i We were specifically told what the messiah must accomplish fulfill in order to make the identification, and, more importantly, not make an incorrect identification.

I think you underestimate how much the apostles Paul and Peter prepared the Christian church for the long distance run. Of course they wanted Christ to return in their lifetimes. But that they knew He might not are apparent. And they faithfully prepared the next generation/s for the longer distance run of endurance should He tarry.

And the thousand plus intervening years have not been wasted as the Gospel has spread and the church has been torture tested through every conceivable attack from within and without. The durableness of Christ's church has been witnessed by the centuries.


sholomo Wrote:The notion of a second coming is, therefore, totally and absolutely invalid!

Would you have counted Moses invalid before all ten plagues had persuaded Pharoah? Would you have sought to stone Moses in the wilderness and followed another leader back to Egypt ? Would you have decided to die in Babylon if you had the chance to return with the remnant after the 70 years of captivity were accomplished ?

I think in this age we'd be wiser to receive His indwelling as Holy Spirit that He is with us until the consummation of the age and cease the intervening time to be sanctified n soul with His "divine nature".

" ... He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4)

Though the Jew wait long Isaiah wrote - "And it will be said in that day, Here, this is our God, For whom we have waited that He may save us. This is Jehovah, for whom we have waited; Let us be glad and rejoice in His salvation." (Isa. 25:9).
#28
Hallo Fms, nice of you to join the conversation. Smile Just to make sure; did you notice that shlomo wrote the original post to this thread in 2006? Smile

I recently made an effort to awaken this topic: "Second Coming/Return" by posting a thread called A so called "Return" or "Second Coming". But it didn't really take off there.
Thing is; I know that Jesus is the anointed one of God, the Messiah and despite this I do not "believe" or can't find scriptural ground for the notion of a second coming or return.
This puts me in the peculiar position of agreeing with shlomo here.
Since then something weirder has developed:
beny, despite being fervently anti-Jesus (i.e. Anitchrist) is arguing (alongside some christians!) that there is no peace!

Can you decipher the conundrum? Smile
What do you say? Can you confirm that:
"...whoever drinks of the water that Messiah will give him, will never be thirsty again. The water that Messiah will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
and that
"Peace He leaves with you; His peace He gives to you. Not as the world gives does He give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid." ?
#29
A.Bird,

What I think needs to be grasped is that Christ's kingdom works from the INSIDE toward the OUTSIDE of man's being. If Christ can gain a Normandy like beach head of people into whom He can dispense and impart His divine Spirit for their saturation, He can have a foothold in which to physically return.

The rivers of living water speak of the dispensing of God as Spirit into the innermost parts of man's being. The divine peace enters the kernel of a man and works its way out. His reign also works from the inside out. His kingdom too - from the inner man outward.

I believe He will physically return of course. But all during this church age Christ reserves some humans for this spreading of His reign from within, most subjectively. He does not need all the world to experience this now. But He does need a remnant of humanity to submit to his INWARD reign, his INWARD life impartation, and His springing up as a fountain of divine life from WITHIN the "nucleus" of their beings.

In a real sense His second coming is from two directions. On one hand it is from within a group of believers so saturated and permeated with His Spirit in their souls. And on the other hand He comes from above, from heaven outwardly to rule the world. This is like two parts of a circle joining together.

Please notice that Paul speaks of the second coming as Christ being glorified IN HIS SAINTS and to be marveled at IN HIS SAINTS -

"When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed ..." (First Thess. 1:10a)

The glorious expression not only come from above but out of and from within His saints. Therefore Paul also says that it is "Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27)

The same is true of the PEACE. It is first the profound peace within in the midst of a world in turmoil.
#30
A.Bird when a man is regenerated, when he is born again, one part of his being is already IN the next age. The Holy Spirit is joined to his human spirit to become "one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

His innermost regenerated spirit, you might say, is already in the new age to come. As Christ within him spreads His enfluence over the man's soul in transformation, his soul gradually enters that coming age also.

The Christian is wise to use the time to become saturated with the Holy Spirit in preparation for the age to follow this age. In Matthew 25 this is symbolized as the wise virgins with extra oil in their vessels along with their lamps, awaiting the Bridegroom's return. They pay a price to have more than the initial Holy Spirit (oil) but an EXTRA portion of the Spirit. This speaks of going beyond regeneration of the new birth to transformation of the soul through sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

So briefly I try to show that the wise Christian enters the new age to come, that millennial kingdom age, with his inner being. To be saturated with Christ in personality is the "rich entrance" into the kingdom of Christ and of God that Peter speaks of :

The "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4) by living in that nature, not only "escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust" but also have supplied to them "the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ... richly supplied ..." (v.11)

Christ reigning the nations with strong "political" power with His co-kings will indeed be taken care of. From this intervening age of grace, He is after quality rather than quantity as far as the conformation to His image is concerned. More and more time means Christ secures more and more a remnant of those cooperating with Him for the saturation process. Those so saturated, so transformed and sanctified, will be resurrected to the reward of co-ruling with Him when He physically returns.


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