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Why the notion of a “Second Coming” is not acceptable
#31
Fms, Like I said; I've been looking to discuss this topic.
But this thread is not the right place for us to continue.
I've tried to post under Theology. If you repost your last msg there; either under my thread; A so called "Return" or "Second Coming" or start a new thread I'll take that as a sign of willingness to help me understand.

The situation here is that every conversation seems to revert to the basic "Is Jesus the Messiah?" question or at least to an effort of Christian-Jews to convince nonchristian-Jews and vice versa.

So let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Messiah and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will move beyond the elementary.
#32
(07-09-2013, 08:51 AM)A. Bird Wrote: Fms, Like I said; I've been looking to discuss this topic.
But this thread is not the right place for us to continue.
I've tried to post under Theology. If you repost your last msg there; either under my thread; A so called "Return" or "Second Coming" or start a new thread I'll take that as a sign of willingness to help me understand.

The situation here is that every conversation seems to revert to the basic "Is Jesus the Messiah?" question or at least to an effort of Christian-Jews to convince nonchristian-Jews and vice versa.

So let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Messiah and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will move beyond the elementary.

Can we continue on the Unmoderated Board ?
#33
A. Bird Wrote:Nonetheless I'll concede that non-christian-Jews like yourself aren't necessarily anti-Christ. But surely you understand that it could seem that way taken the context of our conversation where the believe in Jesus Christ is the central question.

I would venture to say it’s only taken that way because Christians, like Jews for J, specifically target Jewish people for conversion more so than any other religion. Thus, the Jews have to strengthen themselves against this assault more so than any other religion.

A. Bird Wrote:Again I want to point out to you that the peace you're waiting for is a peace that will be given to you by BBC and CNN…The lack of peace in this world is much bigger than what you might be ready to believe. The lack of peace in this world is so big that it consumes a person, peace should be big enough to reach even the Jew in Chicago.

Peace, when it is given us, will surely reach everybody, for the prophet promises it will cover the world as water covers the seabed (Isaiah 11:9), which was my point all along. I’m not waiting for BBC or CNN to tell me about peace, namely because I do not own a TV, but also because we’ll feel it and see it ourselves, not just be told about it by talking heads.

Regarding the video you shared, my comp is having difficulty playing it, but if I can figure it out, I’ll take a look.
#34
(07-19-2013, 10:58 AM)benyosef Wrote: I would venture to say it’s only taken that way because Christians, like Jews for J, specifically target Jewish people for conversion more so than any other religion. Thus, the Jews have to strengthen themselves against this assault more so than any other religion.

I think it's fitting that Jews preach to Jews and the French to the French and Zulus to Zulus. Who better than your "brother" to explain to you the good news of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
About "...strengthening yourself against the assault...", come now, Jews believing in the man who we preach to you as being the Messiah should be the least of your worries.
Strengthen yourself rather against the assault of the devil; Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. and of idolworship; No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?

(07-19-2013, 10:58 AM)benyosef Wrote: Peace, when it is given us, will surely reach everybody, for the prophet promises it will cover the world as water covers the seabed (Isaiah 11:9), which was my point all along. I’m not waiting for BBC or CNN to tell me about peace, namely because I do not own a TV, but also because we’ll feel it and see it ourselves, not just be told about it by talking heads.

I cannot agree more. I tell you: That peace is here! It is closer to you than you think, at the door knocking, it is the confirmation, fulfillment and substance of what is for some, merely a greeting: "Shalom".
If you don't need it or know it now, so be it then. Let me not try to convince you of it like some talking head or something, let me just say this: if a day comes when the lion is on top of you and some other master cannot save, when you say: "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?" then remember that all hope is not gone, there's a man going 'round taking names and he decides who to free and who to blame, All things have been committed to Him by His Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to Him, all you who are weary and burdened, and He will give you rest. Take His yoke upon you and learn from Him, for He is gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
#35
(07-20-2013, 07:38 AM)A. Bird Wrote: About "...strengthening yourself against the assault...", come now, Jews believing in the man who we preach to you as being the Messiah should be the least of your worries.

Which was worse: the threat of physical death via Haman (Purim), or the threat of spiritual death via the Syrian-Greeks (Chanuka)? Contemporaneously, which is worse: suffering a rocket or bomb attack at the hands of Hamas, or believing the sales pitch that one becomes a "fulfilled Jew" by converting to Christianity?

(07-20-2013, 07:38 AM)A. Bird Wrote: I cannot agree more. I tell you: That peace is here! It is closer to you than you think, at the door knocking, it is the confirmation, fulfillment and substance of what is for some, merely a greeting: "Shalom". If you don't need it or know it now, so be it then...

And so we have come full circle. Anyone can promise "inner peace" by simply believing what they are selling, but G-D promises an end to war and an end to weaponry. Is "peace!" knocking on my door? Only by those peddling Trinitarian Christianity, the J-Witness people, Mormons, Muslims, and Jains. I'm not waiting for talking heads, I'm waiting for an ocean of knowledge of G-D (Isaiah 11:9).
#36
Please consider a few things. First, that Jesus' second coming was not added later because Jesus himself spoke of it on a few occasions. Take for example the prophecy from Malachi 4 "5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers...”
This prophecy was brought up during the time of Christ as being unfulfilled. However, Jesus affirmed that it was indeed fulfilled. Matthew 17 "9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist."
In relation to your comment it is important to note that the coming of Elijah was directly related to the coming of Messiah. Jesus affirmed that he had come, and that he does (is yet to) come.
On separate occasions as in Matthew 24 Jesus warned against false Christs coming in the name of Christ. Obviously implying that Jesus would leave. Later on that same passage says "and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." How can He come unless He has left for a time?
Perhaps it is even more clear in Luke 12:42-48 where Jesus gives parables about endurance in doing well as a servant. In the parable the master leaves for a time and is "delayed in coming" (verse 45) but eventually does come. If you would like yet another example of this teaching of Jesus the parable beforehand is also applicable. These are just a few examples.
This then was not added later as you have said that it was when people realized that Christ had not fulfilled every prophecy. Jesus Himself affirmed this teaching. Neither is there any contradiction with the old testament prophecies as you have implied. On the contrary, some prophecies are not fully understood until their fulfillment. It was known from Isaiah 53 that the Messiah would be a suffering servant, yet a great and powerful ruler from other prophecies. It is now clear that the Christ intends to come back to fulfill what has not yet been. There is no contradiction. However there are contradictions that would occur if you refuse Jesus as Messiah.
For example, the scriptures make it clear that the Messiah must be a descendant of David the king. We have two (maternal and paternal) that affirm that this was indeed the case with Jesus. However, in 70 A.D. the Jewish genealogies were destroyed. There is no longer any way to affirm if one is the descendant of David. This was almost directly after the time of Jesus. Personally, I do not take that as coincidence.
#37
Member116 Wrote:Take for example the prophecy from Malachi …Jesus affirmed…”that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him…Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist."

What’s interesting about this exchange is that John was actually asked this very question:

John 1:21: They asked him, ‘Then who are you? Are you Elijah?’ He said, ‘I am not.’ ‘Are you the Prophet?’ He answered, ‘No.’

I truly appreciate you citing your sources in your examples, but the question is where from the Jewish Scriptures do we see the notion of a “second coming.” The claim that J, or anybody, fulfilled Biblical prophecy can only be verified against what the Torah actually prophesizes. When examining the words of the Torah, there is no clear source that the Messiah will “return.”

In the first gospel (Mt 16:21-22), “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took him aside and said, ‘Praise God! You are surely the Messiah, of whom the Scriptures spoke!’”

Just kidding. Peter began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!”

Just a few verses earlier, Simon Peter says that Jesus was the messiah, and suddenly his own disciple doesn’t realize that it was the Messiah’s job to die and resurrect? Surely he knew the Scripture?

I would say yes, he did know the Scripture, and he did not find anything in there about the Messiah dying and then coming back to complete the prophecies.

Member116 Wrote:…the scriptures make it clear that the Messiah must be a descendant of David the king…However, in 70 A.D. the Jewish genealogies were destroyed. There is no longer any way to affirm if one is the descendant of David.

Where do you get the idea that the Jewish genealogy records were kept in the Temple? There is no indication anywhere that they were ever kept therein.

When the Torah tells us the Messiah will be from David, it is not as a sign to look for someone from David’s family, because, as you say, that cannot be proven. We are given better signs, like he will be a king (Ezekiel 37:24) and a righteous judge (Isaiah 11:2-4). More importantly, we are told the world will be full of knowledge of G-D to the extent that no one will say to another, saying “know the L-RD,” for we will all know Him (Jeremiah 31:34), and that all nations will worship G-D (Isaiah 2:2-3, 66:23). When the Torah tells us of the End of Days, it spends much more time talking about how the world will be different than it does about a single person. Thus, although this Messianic king will be a very holy, very special person, he is relatively unimportant compared to the state of the world during his reign.
#38
(07-24-2013, 04:15 PM)benyosef Wrote: Which was worse: the threat of physical death via Haman (Purim), or the threat of spiritual death via the Syrian-Greeks (Chanuka)? Contemporaneously, which is worse: suffering a rocket or bomb attack at the hands of Hamas, or believing the sales pitch that one becomes a "fulfilled Jew" by converting to Christianity?

But how is it that you couldn't care less for the Jew worshiping money and I know not what other idols, but as soon as that Jew turns back to the God of Jacob because of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, you have a problem?
Take Sid Roth for example, who corrected him? Effort to save his oh-so-jewish soul only came as soon as he returned to the true God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Do you not recognise the spirit in yourself? Can it be antichrist? Anti-messiah?


(07-24-2013, 04:15 PM)benyosef Wrote: And so we have come full circle. Anyone can promise "inner peace" by simply believing what they are selling, but G-D promises an end to war and an end to weaponry. Is "peace!" knocking on my door? Only by those peddling Trinitarian Christianity, the J-Witness people, Mormons, Muslims, and Jains. I'm not waiting for talking heads, I'm waiting for an ocean of knowledge of G-D (Isaiah 11:9).

Do you also notice that you follow a religion that needs war to find confirmation? I tell you they create confirmation for their religion. Who are the warmongers?
Is the lack of peace the foundation of your faith?
You preach war to me.
I preach peace to you.
Come now, I beg of you, I implore you, I plead with you:
Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow you all the days of your life, and you shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
#39
(07-24-2013, 09:13 PM)Member116 Wrote: Please consider a few things.

A so called "Return" or "Second Coming".
#40
(07-25-2013, 04:48 PM)benyosef Wrote: Just kidding. Peter began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!”

Just a few verses earlier, Simon Peter says that Jesus was the messiah, and suddenly his own disciple doesn’t realize that it was the Messiah’s job to die and resurrect? Surely he knew the Scripture?

Our Lord also knew that his disciples would take offense in the path our Father preordained for Him.
Once many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Even today many are offended at the fact that Messiah did not come to satisfy their fleshly, political longings, they would prefer His eternal Kingdom a little lower.
They forget:
"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts..." Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

I pray benyosef, that the God you claim to worship will enable you to to come to Y'shua, the anointed of Israel.

Consider the sermon of that same Peter after the Spirit of certainty was given him:
Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. Men of Israel, hear these words: Y'shua of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Y'shua, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. This Y'shua God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Y'shua whom you crucified.”


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