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Why the notion of a “Second Coming” is not acceptable
#1
To summarize, followers of J.C. concede that not all the prophecies of messiah have yet been fulfilled.  Therefore, they say, he will come again and fulfill them.

The problem here, besides that this claim could be made of any potential messiah, is that it was added later to adjust to the fact that they had not been fulfilled.  While the original Christians assumed that would be soon, we are now approaching two-thousand years!  We were specifically told what the messiah must accomplish in full in order to make the identification, and, more importantly, not make an incorrect identification.

Given this, it is very clear that we cannot accept anything short of the fulfillment of the prophecy of messiah in the lifetime of the proclaimed messiah to identify anybody as the messiah.  The notion of a second coming is, therefore, totally and absolutely invalid!
#2
Except that Isaiah 53 speaks of a sin bearing death as well as a victorious end.  The Messiah cannot do both of those at one time.

Now, shlomo, when the Messiah comes, according to your criteria, are you going to be completely skeptical and uncooperative with a candidate until he brings everything to a victorious conclusion and Israel is living in peace, and lions are eating grass with the lambs?  There is no way you could recognize him at any earlier stage?
#3
 "There is no way you could recognize him at any earlier stage?"

That wasn't his point but you missed it anyway. Who the Messiah will be is unimportant what is important is what the world will look like.

Ezekiel - Chapter 37

Avraham
#4
shlomo Wrote:To summarize, followers of J.C. concede that not all the prophecies of messiah have yet been fulfilled.  Therefore, they say, he will come again and fulfill them.

The problem here, besides that this claim could be made of any potential messiah, is that it was added later to adjust to the fact that they had not been fulfilled.  While the original Christians assumed that would be soon we are now approaching two-thousand years!  We were specifically told what the messiah must accomplish fulfill in order to make the identification, and, more importantly, not make an incorrect identification.

Given this, it is very clear that we cannot accept anything short of the fulfillment of the prophecy of messiah in the lifetime of the proclaimed messiah to identify anybody as the messiah.  The notion of a second coming is, therefore, totally and absolutely invalid!

How about the "notion" of the first coming, then, of your 'Jewish Messiah,' you Jews (I'm assuming you're Jewish as well) who apparently refuse to believe in Christ? How then do you explain an even longer period of time, then, if you refuse to believe that your Messiah has already come the 'first time'?

Gulp.

The Lord continues to take the 'so-called' wise in their own "craftiness;" which is what has been man's problem all along, some men thinking themselves 'smarter' than the writer of the "hidden" Scriptures, the Holy Spirit.

Nice try, but a swing and a miss.


God bless.

Ruht

#5
Ruht Wrote:How about the "notion" of the first coming, then, of your 'Jewish Messiah,' you Jews (I'm assuming you're Jewish as well) who apparently refuse to believe in Christ? How then do you explain an even longer period of time, then, if you refuse to believe that your Messiah has already come the 'first time'?

Gulp.

The Lord continues to take the 'so-called' wise in their own "craftiness;" which is what has been man's problem all along, some men thinking themselves 'smarter' than the writer of the "hidden" Scriptures, the Holy Spirit.

Nice try, but a swing and a miss.


God bless.

Ruht

"How then do you explain an even longer period of time, then, if you refuse to believe that your Messiah has already come the 'first time'?"

The prophets tell us there will be a long period of time where we will have no King. So we "explain" it by reading the Hebrew bible.

Your bible says your messiah is returning quickly.

That's the difference.

#6
ThomasDGW Wrote:Except that Isaiah 53 speaks of a sin bearing death as well as a victorious end.  The Messiah cannot do both of those at one time.

Now, Shlomo, when the Messiah comes, according to your criteria, are you going to be completely skeptical and uncooperative with a candidate until he brings everything to a victorious conclusion and Israel is living in peace, and lions are eating grass with the lambs?  There is no way you could recognize him at any earlier stage?
A messiah at "an early stage" must fulfill the prophecy within his lifetime.  It certainly cannnot take 2000 years!

Also, the messiah doesn't require "belief," his identity will be fact, not "belief."  Some of our most important prophets did not "believe" in G-d (in the way we define "belief").  You don't have to "believe" when you have knowledge certain!  
#7
shlomo, I know that many rabbis teach that the Messiah will come when the conditions of the hearts of Jews is right.  That does seem to require that there would be an acceptance of the Messiah when He comes.  If that were not the case, the Messiah could come at any time, and yet He is not here.  For the Messiah to come and declare that fact and start to fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies while people are rejecting Him and telling Him they want nothing to do with His programs or actions, well, that is what you seem to think is valid when you say that no belief is required.  Belief, in the sense I am using the word, and in the sense that the New Testament uses the word, means trust, and God works with and in those who trust in Him.  Those who will not have anything to do with God or His Messiah, meaning that they do not put their trust in him will be treated in a way spelled out in Proverbs 1:28-33.  I suggest that you reexamine what the Bible says about the need for belief.

You say that you will be expecting the Messiah to fulfill all His roles in one lifetime.  I believe that is a man-made idea. The NT concept that Jesus put His kingdom on hold because He was rejected (just as Isaiah 53 says He would be) is coherent and should not cause you to reject Jesus.
#8
shlomo Wrote:It is very clear that we cannot accept anything short of the fulfillment of the prophecy of messiah in the lifetime of the proclaimed messiah to identify anybody as the messiah.  The notion of a second coming is, therefore, totally and absolutely invalid![/size][/color]
Daniel 9; 26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
      """Messiah shall be cut off""", but not for Himself;
      And the people of the prince who is to come
      Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
      The end of it shall be with a flood,
      And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
       27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
      But in the middle of the week
      He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
      And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
      Even until the consummation, which is determined,
      Is poured out on the desolate.”                                                                                                                                                                                                          [Azriel]; Let us not also forget Isaiah 53, and Micah 5;2.Now I'm sure you understand?not
#9
shlomo Wrote:To summarize, followers of J.C. concede that not all the prophecies of messiah have yet been fulfilled.  Therefore, they say, he will come again and fulfill them.

The problem here, besides that this claim could be made of any potential messiah, is that it was added later to adjust to the fact that they had not been fulfilled.  While the original Christians assumed that would be soon we are now approaching two-thousand years!  We were specifically told what the messiah must accomplish fulfill in order to make the identification, and, more importantly, not make an incorrect identification.

Given this, it is very clear that we cannot accept anything short of the fulfillment of the prophecy of messiah in the lifetime of the proclaimed messiah to identify anybody as the messiah.  The notion of a second coming is, therefore, totally and absolutely invalid!

Except God never says that it is impossible not to recognize the Messiah. And that Messiah would be forced upon Israel against their freewill without Israel first accepting the 1st coming of the Messiah.

So for those of you who are in unbelief, approaching 2,000 years without Messiah is then acceptable? But it's not when talking about his second coming?
#10
(10-25-2010, 06:45 PM)shlomo Wrote: To summarize, followers of J.C. concede that not all the prophecies of messiah have yet been fulfilled.  Therefore, they say, he will come again and fulfill them.

The problem here, besides that this claim could be made of any potential messiah, is that it was added later to adjust to the fact that they had not been fulfilled.  While the original Christians assumed that would be soon we are now approaching two-thousand years!  We were specifically told what the messiah must accomplish fulfill in order to make the identification, and, more importantly, not make an incorrect identification.

Given this, it is very clear that we cannot accept anything short of the fulfillment of the prophecy of messiah in the lifetime of the proclaimed messiah to identify anybody as the messiah.  The notion of a second coming is, therefore, totally and absolutely invalid!

I just want to say that I agree with you on this with the only difference being that I would not have posted it under: Why I DON'T believe in Y'shua (Jesus) Smile


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