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Legalism
#1
Over the last two weeks , my wife has been hammered on facebook with Christians saying ; Obey the Laws of G-d,giving quotes and scriptures,and following the dietary laws,and traditions and laws of every scripture literally of the Old and New Testament ,to the point she cried because she defended grace, and was told if she didn't follow all these guidelines , she was not a Christian! It seems to do so becomes an impossible quest , as one leads to another, to the conclusion to follow  about every Law of the Old and New Testament is impossible to reach; for 1 example; the rules Paul set out in 1 Corinthians for the church of Corinth; for women to obey the husband, and not speak in church , and cover their heads, etc., and if they are not obeyed to the tee, you lose your salvation, with no compromise. The list of laws go on and on,like going to the doctor is a sin, and if you do you have no faith. There are so many laws, many not making a whole lot of sense.So where is the line between the law and grace?Right and wrong? I think many Christians bind themselves up in the physical Law's to the point they become a stumbling block to New believers. I do respect the rabbi's of their steadfastness in their faith, and word, and living everyday within a structured practice they follow, and some Christians do as well.But yet what is the Law? and what do we follow? Is it rules and guidelines, like a picket fence that we can't walk past? or is it something more that breathes within our heart? Yeshua said ; It is not that which enters a mans body, or the clothes, or outward appearance that defiles the man, but what comes from a mans heart that defiles the man.[Genesis 6;5], and G-d concluded it is man's nature[Genesis 8;21] and instead of destroying mankind ,G-d makes a covenant with man;[[Genesis 9;1-3], and again repeatedly makes more covenants, adding and subtracting variances of the laws of tradition, not that G-d mad a mistake, but becomes flexible to accommodate man's imperfection .So if man by nature is evil, how do we , as men walk perfect, and obey every law? Surely the Laws are not wrong if we follow them, but can we follow them all ? I can't even come close!The only things in my life that really changed for the better were the things I desired, and wanted to change,that the Holy Spirit changed within me,not because I had to, but because I wanted to. I think that is probably the same with everyone. We can outwardly obey every rule, but what about our inward desire?. Yeshua said; If we still desire to commit an act of sin, it is the same as committing the act!My question is; Where does grace draw the line from the Law?and what Laws are we expected to obey to secure our salvation?
#2
This is a central issue, and has caused all kinds of misunderstandings, from the moment the first gentile became a Christian until the present moment.  The most central scripture is Romans 7:6.  We must keep all of the laws spiritually.  We keep Passover spiritually by trusting in Christ as the Passover Lamb and by keeping spiritual leaven such as malice out of our lives (I Corinthians 5).  We sacrifice with praise and good deeds (Hebrews 13:15-16) instead of carrying lambs to the Temple, which of course is impossible at the present anyway.  You and your wife need to get solidly grounded on this issue so that these exhortations don't shake you, then you will be thankful that those misguided exhortations came to move you out of a "I think so" faith to an "I know so" faith.  Then you will smile instead of cry when they get on your case.
#3
I will answer as a Jew, but your and other xtians perspective will probably be different.

Read the Hebrew bible. To whom was G-d speaking to when these Laws were given? The Israelites.

If you are not Jewish, then you don't have to obey all of the commands given to the Jews. Even the Jews are not required to follow them perfectly. That is not written anywhere. We are to obey, keep and uphold them. If you are not Jewish, then there are Laws you must follow, but not all of the ones the Israelites were told to.

Everything is a progression. You cannot do eveything at one time, it is impossible. So one must gradually. step by step, change their lives to strive to obey G-d's commandments.

I cannot comment on "the loss of salvation" since it has nothing to do with Judaism. G-d tells us over and over again to turn from our evil ways towards the good. That is what he requires.

Read Ecc.12 the last few verses. That pretty much sums it up from the man that G-d gave the greatest wisdom to.

I'm sure the xtains will give you some very differnt answers, but I thought I would at least try to address your situation.

May G-d bless your journey.
#4
searchinmyroots Wrote:If you are not Jewish, then you don't have to obey all of the commands given to the Jews. Even the Jews are not required to follow them perfectly. That is not written anywhere. We are to obey, keep and uphold them. If you are not Jewish, then there are Laws you must follow, but not all of the ones the Israelites were told to.


Hello searchinmyroots. Your above quote I fine interestings. What if you are a Jew, like Paul (tribe of Benjamin), that has accepted Jesus as Lord? Paul stated in Galatians that those, Jews and Gentiles, are a new creation before God and that the legalistic Law no longer apply to those in Christ Jesus, we are a new creation, we are God's Israel(see Galatians 6:11 to 16).

It seems like what you are saying is that if I am a Jew by blood, I still have to keep the Law as I follow Christ? If you are telling us that, then it goes againts Christian Doctrine.

Paul spoke against this very thing in Galatians 4:21 to 31, Paul explains how the Law enslaved us until the Seed of promise to Abraham had come. We as Jews for Jesus and simply Christians, know that the Seed of promise to Abraham is Jesus, the one to fulfill the Law through his ministry, death,burial and resurrection.

We as Jews claim Abraham as our father, Moses as our brother. The covenant to Moses was an add on to our father Abraham to perserve a nation until the Seed of promise had come (Galatians 5:1 to 6).

We as Jews and Gentiles in Christ can not desert Jesus who has called us into his grace. But we do that by burdening one another with the Law that means enslavement. To add the Law to the Gospel of Christ is like nailing to the cross all over again. Christ die so that we may be free from the Law. Any other way by adding the Law, is teaching another gospel (Galatians 1:6 to 10). Hold to the Law means that Jesus died for nothing (Galatians 2:21).

Paul opposed Peter himself for this very thing. Either we hold to our brother's covenant (Moses) which was given to perserve a nation until Christ had come, or we hold to our father's covenant, a covenant of faith(Galatians 2:11 to 21).

I myself as a Jew by blood, but Christian raised, would hold to the Gospel truth of Jesus and his Apostles' teachings (Acts 2:42). I love all my Jewish and Gentile brothers and sisters here. But let us not do as Peter had done in Galatians chapter two. Instead, let us be faithful as our father Abraham has been faithful.

Forgive me searchinmyroots if I have misunderstood you. I just wanted to express what Scripture has to say concerning all Christians, Jews and Gentiles alike. If we call ourselves followers of Jesus Christ, then we should not be answering Christian questions as Jews nor Gentiles, but as a Christian and in a gentle way (1Peter 3:15 to 17).


#5
Thank you SMR and Thomas. You both make qualified testimony about the subject of Legalism. I am very grounded in my belief as most here know my perspective on the subject as I have been hit by both sides, some objecting to me defending both positions of grace , and works. My most vulnerable position is my partner Pam. When she is hurt , it hurts me to not be able to explain not to take these people to heart, because the heart is usually the least thing they are using.I think the ones closest to you are usually the ones to listen to you the least, because they see all your faults and shortcomings.It's easy to write down what you want people to see, and leave out the rest, but hard to live each day without stumbling somewhere or with something no matter how small or large the issue may be.Walking in Yeshua is not always doing what feels good, or makes you happy, that is not the complete Spirit that lives within us. Sometimes decisions we make defy what the moment lures us to. Iv'e reffered walking in Yeshua to a man who is cold. He must first go out and chop the wood, and carry it in , and place it in the hearth, and place kindling, and newspaper, and then light the fire, all the time still being cold until the fire is ignighted, then we feel the warmth. Many times the gratification comes after faith; faith knowing the warmth will come from our actions. How much would men sin if there was no Heaven, No G-d, no accountability for our actions?. Sin feels good for the moment, but always has a price to be paid. I think the lessons I learned the most were the things that hurt me the most. It is much easier to not fall in a hole than trying to climb out, and you don't climb out of the hole by digging it deeper. Had my life not been utterly destroyed, most from my own mistakes, I would not be where I am today; In G-d's Arms, and Living within me; My righteousness is knowing that ;It is His!
#6
searchinmyroots Wrote:I will answer as a Jew, but your and other xtians perspective will probably be different.

Read the Hebrew bible. To whom was G-d speaking to when these Laws were given? The Israelites.

If you are not Jewish, then you don't have to obey all of the commands given to the Jews. Even the Jews are not required to follow them perfectly. That is not written anywhere. We are to obey, keep and uphold them. If you are not Jewish, then there are Laws you must follow, but not all of the ones the Israelites were told to.

Everything is a progression. You cannot do eveything at one time, it is impossible. So one must gradually. step by step, change their lives to strive to obey G-d's commandments.

I cannot comment on "the loss of salvation" since it has nothing to do with Judaism. G-d tells us over and over again to turn from our evil ways towards the good. That is what he requires.

Read Ecc.12 the last few verses. That pretty much sums it up from the man that G-d gave the greatest wisdom to.

I'm sure the xtains will give you some very differnt answers, but I thought I would at least try to address your situation.

May G-d bless your journey.
toda raba. You response sounds like the same G-d that speaks to me!Blessings as well !
#7
"What if you are a Jew, like Paul (tribe of Benjamin), that has accepted Jesus as Lord?"

That makes you a Christian.

Avraham
#8
Jonah3 Wrote:It seems like what you are saying is that if I am a Jew by blood, I still have to keep the Law as I follow Christ? If you are telling us that, then it goes againts Christian Doctrine.


If you or any "Jew by blood" (which really should say Jew by birth through a Jewsih mother), follow Jesus, then you are correct. You should follow the Christian Doctrine because your religion is now Christian.

You'll always be a Jew as "a people", but your religious beliefs are Christian.
#9
What I see taking place in the Christian community is a spirit of legalism occurring. I think it is the basis of the antichrist rising. So many of us here if not all, have been slammed by others saying; You must obey the Law , and breaking one denies your salvation, in other words we must walk a perfect walk,women to cover their heads, going to doctors is lack of faith, and medicine ,and again thousands of by laws, grinding and teisting out to a theology no-one of a self examining mind could bear, and then in weakness ,they twist you into submission. Instead of Grace it becomes a walk of right and wrong-good verses evil, and somewhere Christ gets the back seat to it all. We watch movies like Harry Potter, Lord of the rings, The golden compass,thousands of  shows our children watch,setting forth the concept of good verses evil, and replacing a name with an act.I started a thread about legalism  because of our personal lives being hammered by these people to the point many have come to the point of judging thier own salvation. Its a bondage of rules and regulations even the prudent laws of Judaism don't come close to matching in numbers.This legalistic spirit becomes a wedge to many new believers to not accept Christianity but seek to be a good person instead.I see how easily the antichrist will use this spirit to form a universalism religion.It's easy to look at Israel for example in this spirit. A man Abraham gives the inheritance of his people to ;two sons-Isaac and Jacob who lied and tricked the firstborn out of their inheritance to own a land in which they persecute those very descendants now, and inflict law upon them.Righteousness is not understood without humility,or by the Holy Spirit; that is the righteousness of G-d , not of mans concept , but rather by Faith;  Not seeing that we may believe, but rather believing that we may see.Surely to obey the law is crucial in our walk, but it is by the Holy Spirit that gives this to us not by our own works, but by grace, freely given by the act of Love, and if we are perfect in G-d , perfection is seeing we are not and He is![ Jesus-Immanuel] Somewhere in this new religion of legalism that key element is lost,[grace] which the demons may enter through that empty void in men's hearts sidetracked by a mirage of works, and lead them into the One World religious order, I believe it to be Islam, 666 to be symbols of Islam, and led by; quote; good men united in one cause.A democratic socialistic system, combined with a religious spirit of animosity of Islam making the soft clay feet mixed with iron of an unstable alliances the metallic image of Daniel. Guard your hearts well my friends. I see many similarities in the G-d SMR speaks of to the G-d I know; A G-d of Love to an imperfect world; The G-d of Israel..Shalom
#10
I myself find it troubling that Christianities is opposed to the keeping of the Law that G-D himself gave. We live in a nation of Laws. Where would any society and or religion be without them?

The New Testament itself is full of rules and the church has plenty of their own. It's hypocritical.


Avraham


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