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Support For The Trinity In The Old Testament
#1
The Trinity is supported in the Old Testament.ÊÊ

The son appears in Proverbs 30:4

He also resides in the furnace with the three believers in Daniel 3.

Prophesies about the Son are in many, many passages of the Old Testament.

Observant Jews believe in a Messiah.ÊÊThey need to investigate Jesus as the fulfillment of all of the prophesies about Messiah.

The Holy Spirit was testafied to in different Psalms by King David and other prophets.ÊÊ

The Spirit of God hovered over the waters in Genesis 1 before the Earth was formed.ÊÊ

The Spirit Of God is referred to many other times in the Old Testament.

Observant Jews who believe that the Old Testament is from God need to investigate the Trinity.ÊÊThen they need to see how the OT agrees with the New Testament perfectly.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of Jewish readers of the Old Testament and show them that He proclaims the Holy Trinity in the Old Testament and that Jesus is the true Messiah written and testafied by the prophets.
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#2
and I think a related issue is whether the Messiah is somehow in some sense G-d  and I would give several reasons I am convinced yes
Somehow it is G-d who dresses them in the robes of righteousness
and a few reasons I can think of would be

1)  THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS  is a theme of the prophets.  Somehow THE LORD G-d will become the righteousness of believers

2) Daniel 3 says G-d's kingdom will be eternal,  Daniele 7 says the son of man coming with the clouds kingdom will be eternal... and we have to reconcile these by saying the Son of Man, the Messiah's kingdom is somewhow also G-d kingdom

3) Prophesy points to it.  As one example, Zechariah foretells that someday G-d himself will somehow be priced at 30 pieces of silver by Israel the price of a female slave which was fulfilled at the betrayal and arrest of Jesus through Judas.

" Behold I have engraved my people upon the palms of my hands "  as Isiaah said ... and the nail scars will be there forever as a perfect reminder in a perfect place that will no longer know pain or suffering or tears or death thanks to the work of the Messiah on the cross of triumph

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#3
Please explain the trinity of God. When did Jesus or the Word of God become the Almighty God Himself? Surely a whale is born from a whale. Human begets human and God begets God.  Jesus is Son of Man and Son of God, why is it necessary to promote that he was more ultimate than he already was? A believer is begotten by flesh and blood first, and then begotten by the spirit of God. Jesus said “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Does this make a believer God?
Jesus prayed to his Father concerning those that would believe in the Father through him and his disciples.  “And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” John 17:11 and “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” John 17:21
Will there be a day when I will be God Himself? I can barely type such a thing. I witness to anyone willing to listen, I am not God nor would I ever assume that I will become God at a later time in my existence. Isn’t it enough to be like God in word and deed? What better life could anyone lead on earth or heaven? Jesus was the firstborn from the dead. If Jesus is a firstborn then it would follow that there is expected more to be born after him. If we are born in the similitude of the Christ, and he is God, then we also would be gods. What heretical doctrine a little ignorance makes.

I agree if we are consumed by God and are assimilated into his being, we would become God, but if we maintain a squint of individuality then we must say and confess that we are in fact not God, but share in every good thing because of our intimate affiliation with Him.
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#4
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

John 1:1

>Please explain the trinity of God. When did Jesus or the Word of God become the Almighty God Himself? Surely a whale is born from a whale.


>Human begets human and God begets God. Jesus is Son of Man and Son of God, why is it necessary to promote that he was more ultimate than he already was? A believer is begotten by flesh and blood first, and then begotten by the spirit of God. Jesus said “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Does this make a believer God?
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#5
I do not believe Jesus was merely assimilated into G-d.
G-d made the world through His word
G-d gives the saved His righteousness

There was a huge controvesy once about Jesus being the same nature as G-d the same nature as, homoousious or stick an extra iota in the greek in the middle to get homo-i-ousious (not sure the spelling of either and greek anyhow) And the church councils came down overwhelmingsly as momoousious and NOT ONE IOTA DIFFERENT.
so I would say the same nature and NOT ONE IOTA DIFFERENT


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#6
God always existed here, there and everywhere at every time. When this physical Universe was made, it was made by God and in God. Everything that God made is limited physical substance so this Universe cannot ever contain God. That does not mean that God is not here. When Y'shua was born, that was not the first time He existed because there is no impure action that can be done without a cost. God gave up His Son Y'shua for us when the world was made. For us created beings to live before the Lord as sinners, Y'shua God's Son had to be given up. By the time Adam sinned, Y'shua was already given up for us. So much so that the prophecy of the seed of the woman was given. When that seed of the woman Y'shua, the Son of Man was born, it was the first time that God could be seen by everyone in the flesh because God took on our physical limitations of time and space. Y'shua also went back into time after His resurrection so there is no place or time where God has not been. This Universe of limitations that we live in is a box that cannot contain God. It is also a box that cannot exclude Him. So God's Son came into our world of limitations and took all of the thorns and abuse that we deserve on Himself and redeemed all of Creation through His death so there is nothing and no one that does not belong to Him.

Shalom!
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#7
Who is The Holy Spirit?

By definition, the one who begets (causes conception) is the father of the one begotten. Therefore The Holy Spirit is literally the Father of Jesus, for Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18-20 NKJV). Consequently if the Father and the Holy Spirit were two persons, then Jesus would have two fathers.


Let's take a look at the following.


Luke 3:22 (New King James Version)
And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."

Matthew 3:16 (New King James Version)
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

John 1:32 (New King James Version)
And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

In the above we see that the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) descended in bodily form as a dove.


Now let's take a look at something else.


Mark 13:11 (New King James Version)
But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

You'll notice that it doesn't say who the Holy Spirit is, only that He will give you what to say.
Now let's take a look at Matthew 10:18-20 NKJV

Matthew 10:18-20 (New King James Version)
You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Notice that Matthew is writing about the same thing as Mark but that he goes on to say, "the Spirit of your Father".


We also see in the following that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and not from the Son!


John 15:26 (New King James Version)
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Acts 2:17 (New King James Version)
‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.


Our Catholic brothers/sisters (Trinitarians) often point to 1 John 5:7 (New King James Version)


1 John 5:7 (New King James Version)
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Thus they reason that the Holy Spirit is a third person. However, the scripture clearly isn't saying that the Holy Spirit is a third person but simply that God's Spirit also bears record in heaven. Let me remind you that these are the same people who misinterpreted the scriptures and basically had the whole world believing that the world was flat. Is it any wonder then that they would misinterpret this scripture as well?

Think about it! :-)


1 Corinthians 3:16 (New King James Version)
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?


Let's also take a look at the following.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (New King James Version)
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Remember this my precious brothers:


2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Romans 8:14 (New King James Version)
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


You may want to bring this to God in prayer!

May Jesus Bless You!!!


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Acts 2:18 (New King James Version)
And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.


Acts 19:6 (New King James Version)
And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
-------

Zechariah 4:6 (New King James Version)
So he answered and said to me: " This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ' Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts.
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#8
The Trinity of G-D is found throughout the Tenach in obvious and not so obvious language.  The very first letter of the Hebraic Alphabet is taught by the rabbis as the very expression of "trinity".  Since the Edfu document, circa 300 B.C.E., the formation of the Alef has been deemed as being a yod in its first stroke, of the upper right corner; then a leaning vav in its center, or second stroke; and then a yod in its lower left, or third stroke.  These letters are 3 that become as one (ehad).  They also, as Maimonides claims, can also be view as one alone (yachid).  Yod = 10, vav = 6, Yod = 10.  This value is 26, and is the exact same value as the utterance of the inhale/exhale name we infer as HASHEM.  The inhale is masculine, and relates to the Father and the Son of Genesis 1:26-27.
      The sages like to ignore verse 27, and the fact that the heavenly court includes the living creatures called Seraphim/Cherubim .  They try to say we are made in the image of creatures, when Torah says we are made in the IMAGE of G-D in Genesis 1:27.  In 2 Corinthians 4:4, we see that it is Jesus who is this Image or exact likeness, "who is in the bosom of The Being" (John 1:18) and is pros ton Theon, "up alongside with G-D" and is G-D the WORD (John 1:1).  "G-D the Word" is a Greek expressive for "the Voice of HASHEM".   We are not made with 4 faces or with wings or with hooves for feet as the Cherubim/Seraphim (cf. Ezekiel chapters 1 & 10).  Therefore, the heavenly court declaration to counter the Trinity is disqualified.  
     The Holy Spirit is the feminine character of G-D, the exhale VeH.  Man is made in the Image of G-D, in the Image of G-D created He them as male and female.  In Lamentations 4:20, we find that it is HASHEM Messiah who breathed into man the breath of life in Genesis 2:7.  If you look closely, you will find in this verse and impartation of a yod in the soul or life of man.  In other words, HASHEM Messiah imparted unto our first father a sliver of His very Spirit.  
     The Tenach tells us that G-D has 7 spirits in Zechariah, while Isaiah 48:16-17 gives us the understanding that there are 3 persons to the Divinity of HASHEM: LORD HASHEM, HASHEM Spirit, and HASHEM the Redeemer.  How can G-D have 7 spirits and be ehad?  In Trinity as revealed us in John 14.  I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, says Jesus. Therefore: (1) Father; (2) Father - Son; (3) Son; (4) Son-Spirit; (5) Holy Spirit; (6) Father - Spirit; (7) Father - Son - Spirit (as one being we call collectively as G-D).  
      In John, Jesus says the Father (the upper yod of the Alef) "is greater than I".  As the hanging vav of the Alef, this is true.  Yod as "10" is greater than "6".  Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I"; but he never says the Father is "better" than I.  When Jesus prays, he prays "erotao" in the Greek, as an equal of the Father to the Father.  He tells us to pray after the manner of humility in "aiteo", as one who is a lowly slave waiting on a great general or emperor, because though we are beloved, we are in no way equal to the Almighty.  
     In types: when the Children of Israel were created, they were named as the children of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.  When they were brought out of Egypt in the reign of the Hyksos in 1551 B.C.E., they were delivered inder the leadership of Moses and Aaron and Miriam.  There are 3 musical sounds of the shofar: tekiah, shevarim, teruah.  There are three separations to Israel: the Kohenim, Levites, and Israelites.  In a Jewish court of law, there are 3 judges required.  In the Passover, there are 3 Matzohs, but only that center one is broken.  The word "stone" is 3 letters in Hebrew (Alef-Beth-Nun), is Alef - BeN in Gematria, which is divided as meaning "G-D's Son", from which G-D is able to raise up seed unto Abraham, says John the Baptist.  
    
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#9
Jack Lavictoire Wrote:Who is The Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit may be all that those Scriptures say and it is also good to know that He is also the Spirit of God's Son.

"Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" "Ga 4:6

"seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow." 1Pe 1:11

Note: The prophets had the Spirit of Christ within them too!

Shalom!
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#10
I'll give it a try

What is the (athanasian) Trinity?  three persons sharing a divine nature.  Jesus shares a divine nature with the Father and Spirit
some theologians would say  Jesus is eternally generated with respect to person from all time  and  Jesus is the same essense and nature as the Father and not eternally generated  with respect to nature form all time being the same nature as the Father and Spirit.  (eastern orthodox would favor saying Jesus is eternally generated even according to nature,  I think western  generally would not but this might be trying to overexplain something)

When did Jesus become the almighty?  Jesus always had a nature of the same type as the father sharing the same nature.  (The same nature, homousious  and not one iota differnt)  a better question is when did Jesus become fully man?  Jesus being thesamenature as the Father, took on an additional nature, a creaturely humanly nature to be born at Bethlehem  so Jesus now has a fully divine nature  and a fully human nature welded together in one package forever now called the hypostatic union

who is the Holy Spirit,  the helper, the advocate, the paraclete
Jesus called his 'another' as oposed to Himself or the Father

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Interestingly, posisbly ironically   both Jesus and the Holy Spirit get the title  paraclete.  Jesus in 1 John 2:1    paraclete being a sort of family lawyer on retention to help when needed,  a picture of a person borrowed from the culture of the time

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

advocate= paraclete here

and the Holy Spirit in John 14 by Jesus.

I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.

councellor = paraclete here

Jesus is the helper person pulling for us in heaven.  The Holy Spirit is the helper person  on earth.  Both persons.  Both described as divine.

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