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On Isaiah 53
#21
Isaiah makes a plain distinction between Israel and a Man.

Yeshayahu 52:

14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

Isaiah would have spoke about Jerusalem or Israel or a "nation" or Zion or a "land" etc.

Yeshayahu 66:
8. Who heard [anything] like this? Who saw [anything] like these? Is a land born in one day? Is a nation born at once, that Zion both experienced birth pangs and bore her children?

10. Rejoice with Jerusalem and exult in her all those who love her: rejoice with her a rejoicing, all who mourn over her.
#22
MessianicJew Wrote:Anyway from your rather overly long 27 pages man, you couldn't just type up one thread worth of a page?

Isn't this a thread? We were talking about this before, and I put together the presentation as a result of the discussion we were having right here on this forum. The 27 pages are deceptive, since it's actually MUCH shorter. The text of the Hebrew and of the King James take up a lot of space. It's really not too much reading.

MessianicJew Wrote:So God punished Israel because nations were heaping punishment on the Jewish people? Why would God do this?

God punished Israel because the nations were punishing Israel? No. That's not what I wrote or what I meant. In the beginning, the punishment against Israel was carried out because of idolatry. However, the idolatry of Israel was not something worth the past 2000 years of punishments. Much of the punishment that Israel has gone through has not been the result of their own sins. It is the sinful action of the Gentile nations that bring pains upon Israel. It is not God punishing Israel, which is what the nations deceptively thought - "we esteemed him smitten of God." He wasn't smitten of God. He was mistreated by man.

MessianicJew Wrote:As it is written, God said to Abraham, I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. God did not say I will bless those that curse you.

No, but the nations found their scapegoat - their means to peace - by inflicting trials on the people of Israel. When the nations were going through a difficult time, they sought out ways to bring the guilt onto Israel, and by doing this they prevented rebellions among the people and averted various troubles. It was the punishment of Israel that brought peace to the nations.

MessianicJew Wrote:And so how then by Israels stripes are we then healed?

Now you're inserting yourself into the text. The "we" are the kings of nations who are shocked at what's happened with the exaltation of Israel. It is not you who found your healing by Israel's suffering.

MessianicJew Wrote:Isaiah 52:14 you say "The New Testament indicates
that Jesus was an attractive person who drew multitudes to
himself."

Where is this in the New Testament?

Multitudes followed him: Matt 4:35; 8:1; 12:15; 13:2; 15:30; 19:2. These are just examples.

What we hear of Jesus is that he "grew in wisdom and stature" (Luke 2:52). He was surely not a person who was ugly, deformed and sick.
#23
MessianicJew Wrote:Isaiah makes a plain distinction between Israel and a Man.

Yeshayahu 52:

14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

Isaiah would have spoke about Jerusalem or Israel or a "nation" or Zion or a "land" etc.

Yeshayahu 66:
8. Who heard [anything] like this? Who saw [anything] like these? Is a land born in one day? Is a nation born at once, that Zion both experienced birth pangs and bore her children?

10. Rejoice with Jerusalem and exult in her all those who love her: rejoice with her a rejoicing, all who mourn over her.

This is the point of my presentation.

When the referent is feminine singular (like "Zion" or "Jerusalem" or "Land"), the personal pronoun is feminine ("she").

When the referent is masculine plural ("they" or "you"), the pronoun is masculine plural.

When the referent is masculine singular (like the collective "people" [עם] or "servant"), then the pronoun is masculine singular.

This is the reason for the pronoun being masculine singular throughout chapter 53, with a few exceptions (noted in my position paper). The section begins with a statement that it's addressing "my servant" as the subject, and the word "my servant" is masculine singular - so the pronouns are masculine singular. It's still referring to Israel, though.

Would you disagree with the fact that Israel is often referred to with the masculine singular pronoun in the prophets?
#24
baruch Wrote:God punished Israel because the nations were punishing Israel? No. That's not what I wrote or what I meant.

This is what you wrote: So, what does this mean? Israel suffered for two reasons: (1) because the nations were unjustly
heaping punishment upon the Jewish people

baruch Wrote:Much of the punishment that Israel has gone through has not been the result of their own sins. It is the sinful action of the Gentile nations that bring pains upon Israel.

Whoever is teaching you this stuff just flipped the truth on its head. Israel always suffered for its sins. How can you blame it on the Gentiles? Where are you reading any of this in Deuteronomy or Leviticus?

baruch Wrote:No, but the nations found their scapegoat - their means to peace - by inflicting trials on the people of Israel. When the nations were going through a difficult time, they sought out ways to bring the guilt onto Israel, and by doing this they prevented rebellions among the people and averted various troubles. It was the punishment of Israel that brought peace to the nations.

Why would nations seek to find ways to bring guilt to Israel? This is weird stuff I'm reading. It's as if you're on this "Oh poor Israel, everybody is out to get us" trip.


baruch Wrote:Now you're inserting yourself into the text. The "we" are the kings of nations who are shocked at what's happened with the exaltation of Israel. It is not you who found your healing by Israel's suffering.

No, I'm reading the word "we". No insertion necessary. So how do you know "we" is Kings, other then it being based off of your own say so? If it was the Kings, then how were the Kings healed? Being shocked, is not being healed.

baruch Wrote:Multitudes followed him: Matt 4:35; 8:1; 12:15; 13:2; 15:30; 19:2. These are just examples.

What we hear of Jesus is that he "grew in wisdom and stature" (Luke 2:52). He was surely not a person who was ugly, deformed and sick.

Multitudes are showing up at Christian revivals, are you trying to say that all these men are models? Christian Ministers are not known for their looks. And those verses you cite don't say anything about how Jesus looked, you can only say what you wrote based on pure assumption. Growing up in stature, does not = only good looking. You can have intellectual stature, physical stature, etc. When Joseph was described, it is written that he was good looking in appearance and form. This is not written about Jesus.
#25
baruch Wrote:
MessianicJew Wrote:Isaiah makes a plain distinction between Israel and a Man.

Yeshayahu 52:

14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

Isaiah would have spoke about Jerusalem or Israel or a "nation" or Zion or a "land" etc.

Yeshayahu 66:
8. Who heard [anything] like this? Who saw [anything] like these? Is a land born in one day? Is a nation born at once, that Zion both experienced birth pangs and bore her children?

10. Rejoice with Jerusalem and exult in her all those who love her: rejoice with her a rejoicing, all who mourn over her.

This is the point of my presentation.

When the referent is feminine singular (like "Zion" or "Jerusalem" or "Land"), the personal pronoun is feminine ("she").

When the referent is masculine plural ("they" or "you"), the pronoun is masculine plural.

When the referent is masculine singular (like the collective "people" [עם] or "servant"), then the pronoun is masculine singular.

This is the reason for the pronoun being masculine singular throughout chapter 53, with a few exceptions (noted in my position paper). The section begins with a statement that it's addressing "my servant" as the subject, and the word "my servant" is masculine singular - so the pronouns are masculine singular. It's still referring to Israel, though.

Would you disagree with the fact that Israel is often referred to with the masculine singular pronoun in the prophets?

There is no use of the word he nor she, they nor you, in Isaiah 66 though. So Zion, Land, Jerusalem, it is all Geography, which points to a location. This is how you know exactly that Isaiah is talking about Israel here. So why didn't Isaiah do the same just a couple chapters earlier in Isaiah 53? You don't have an answer to this, it is all your assumption. I'll go with what is written, and you can argue over grammar all you want. But when reading the entire book, you can easily see when Israel is spoken of, the Geographic locations are given.

#26
MessianicJew Wrote:This is what you wrote: So, what does this mean? Israel suffered for two reasons: (1) because the nations were unjustly
heaping punishment upon the Jewish people

Isn't this just what I said above?

MessianicJew Wrote:Whoever is teaching you this stuff just flipped the truth on its head. Israel always suffered for its sins. How can you blame it on the Gentiles? Where are you reading any of this in Deuteronomy or Leviticus?

This makes me wonder how much you know about the Prophets' writings.

Isaiah 40:2
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

Israel's punishment was not equal to their crimes. They were punished beyond what they deserved.

What was the purpose of this double punishment?

I'm not saying that Israel wasn't punished for their own sins. Of course that's true! But, the oppressors of Israel took it beyond what Israel deserved.

MessianicJew Wrote:Why would nations seek to find ways to bring guilt to Israel? This is weird stuff I'm reading. It's as if you're on this "Oh poor Israel, everybody is out to get us" trip.

And this makes me think that you've never read anything about Jewish history and how the nations treated the people. The Jews were always blamed for the problems of society, and solutions to those problems were sought by expulsion, abuse and murder. If you don't feel sorry for the plight of the Jewish, I feel bad for you. Anyone with a heart would find it disturbing.

MessianicJew Wrote:No, I'm reading the word "we". No insertion necessary. So how do you know "we" is Kings, other then it being based off of your own say so? If it was the Kings, then how were the Kings healed? Being shocked, is not being healed.

Using your logic, we don't need to understand who's speaking or being spoken to. We can just read "we" and "I" in any context and say that it means us. Here's a nice example:

Jeremiah 16:1-2 - The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying, Thou shalt not take thee a wife, neither shalt thou have sons or daughters in this place.

This is clearly a command from God for me not to get married and have children. What a silly way to read Scriptures.

#27
MessianicJew Wrote:Multitudes are showing up at Christian revivals, are you trying to say that all these men are models? Christian Ministers are not known for their looks. And those verses you cite don't say anything about how Jesus looked, you can only say what you wrote based on pure assumption. Growing up in stature, does not = only good looking. You can have intellectual stature, physical stature, etc. When Joseph was described, it is written that he was good looking in appearance and form. This is not written about Jesus.

I didn't intend you to think that he was a surfer with flowing beautiful hair and blue eyes. I was saying that he wasn't infested with disease and shocking in appearance, making people turn their faces from him. He was attractive and charismatic. I'm not saying that people were sexually attracted to him, but that he drew people to himself. Isn't that what "attractive" means?

Can we try to make these responses more focused? The responses are getting too long, and I have to cut part and post it in a second post. Let's keep it more focused, please.
#28
baruch Wrote:Isn't this just what I said above?

No, how could Israel suffer from other nations if they were being blessed by God?

baruch Wrote:This makes me wonder how much you know about the Prophets' writings.

Isaiah 40:2
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

The Geography is in the fifth word: Jerusalem.

baruch Wrote:And this makes me think that you've never read anything about Jewish history and how the nations treated the people. The Jews were always blamed for the problems of society, and solutions to those problems were sought by expulsion, abuse and murder. If you don't feel sorry for the plight of the Jewish, I feel bad for you. Anyone with a heart would find it disturbing.

Not at all, you're looking at History and not reading your Bible. God became furious, they were scattered into all parts of the earth. This is called punishment. You're acting like "Eh, it is not my fault." Had my forefathers did what Moses taught, we wouldn't be all over the world!

baruch Wrote:Using your logic, we don't need to understand who's speaking or being spoken to. We can just read "we" and "I" in any context and say that it means us. Here's a nice example:

Jeremiah 16:1-2 - The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying, Thou shalt not take thee a wife, neither shalt thou have sons or daughters in this place.

This is clearly a command from God for me not to get married and have children. What a silly way to read Scriptures.

I don't use logic, I believe logic is man-made. Anyway, I read what is there. Notice how it is plainly written to Jeremiah, not to Jerusalem, Zion or the People of the land. The word of the LORD came also to me verse 2 You shall not... That is to Jeremiah a warning to him. Why? read further: 3 For this says the LORD concerning the sons and concerning the daughters that are born in this place, and concerning their mothers that bare them, and concerning their fathers that birthed them in this land;

So obviously Jeremiah isn't to have a wife because those people living will suffer greatly. Read again below:

4 They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

#29
Verse 1 and 2 doesn't say the people or Israel. Like how Moses gave us the law. Read further, this is to Jeremiah 8 You shall not also go into the house of feasting, to sit with them to eat and to drink. This verse 10 is to the people: And it shall come to pass, when you shall show this people all these words, and they shall say to you Wherefore has the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?

11 Then shall you say to them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshiped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

Easy, verse 10 and 11 definitely to the people at the time! God gave a warning to Jeremiah and he foreknew what the people would suffer.
#30
MessianicJew Wrote:I don't use logic, I believe logic is man-made.

Computers are man-made. Why don't you stop using them, too, and give the rest of us a break. Count me out for the rest of this discussion.


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