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And how many Jews know their tribe!
(01-29-2014, 03:53 PM)Nachshon Wrote: Where was the ark of the covenant kept?

In the Tabernacle, not the Temple.

(01-29-2014, 03:53 PM)Nachshon Wrote: So in Ex 15:17, the subject is the "temple" in Jerusalem. So, Hashem initiated the temple in Jerusalem. David had the heart to build it, but Solomon completed it.

The subject was the Tabernacle as that is what was built during the time of Moses. The Temple was the idea of King David.

1 Kings 5:5
And, behold, I purpose to build an house to the name of the Lord my God, as the Lord spake unto David my father, saying, Your son, whom I will set upon your throne in your room, he shall build an house to my name.
(01-29-2014, 10:31 PM)benyosef Wrote: You didn't answer the question, you simply showed me where Ezekiel calls three people righteous. He never says these are the only ones.

Yes he does, though these three by their own righteousness!

(01-29-2014, 10:31 PM)benyosef Wrote: Did you actually read what I wrote, or were you just itching to use the word “commentary” again? What is the curse? Among the many punishments He mentions, exile is one of them. What happens when we’re exiled? We’re no longer near the Temple.

What is the curse? Read Deuteronomy, you said God knew you would be dispersed. I read what you wrote, and it is absolutely false commentary. The worse kind of commentary. God doesn't say he knew you would be dispersed. Dispersion is because of sin! And the curse of sin placing you away from the Temple doesn't exonerate you from keeping the law of Moses. The Temple is not a commandment it was an idea of King David and his Son. 1 Kings 5:5
(02-05-2014, 07:09 PM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(01-29-2014, 03:53 PM)Nachshon Wrote: So in Ex 15:17, the subject is the "temple" in Jerusalem. So, Hashem initiated the temple in Jerusalem. David had the heart to build it, but Solomon completed it.
The subject was the Tabernacle as that is what was built during the time of Moses. The Temple was the idea of King David.
Nope because tabernacle is mishkan in Hebrew. Temple is mikdash in Hebrew. Mikdash is used in Ex 15:17.

(02-05-2014, 07:09 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: 1 Kings 5:5
And, behold, I purpose to build an house to the name of the Lord my God, as the Lord spake unto David my father, saying, Your son, whom I will set upon your throne in your room, he shall build an house to my name.
Yep, Solomon followed through with the intent of his father David to fulfill Hashem's desires. Thank you.
MJ Wrote:Yes he does, though these three by their own righteousness!

If you were to argue that these three were the most righteous of all time, or at least until that time, then I could see how you get that, and I may even agree. However, your claim that Ezekiel says these were the only righteous people ever is your own opinion, and is not found in Ezekiel’s words.

MJ Wrote:Read Deuteronomy…God doesn't say he knew you would be dispersed. Dispersion is because of sin! And the curse of sin placing you away from the Temple doesn't exonerate you from keeping the law of Moses. The Temple is not a commandment it was an idea of King David and his Son.

I thought I saw somewhere where G-D, or Moses, hints to a future exile, but I misplaced my source. In any event, what is clearly stated is that if we sin and neglect G-D and His Torah, exile is one of the punishments that lay in wait:

“[when] you shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the L-RD your G-D, to provoke Him to anger, I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you shall soon utterly perish from off the land into where you go…the L-RD shall scatter you among the nations…(Deut. 4:25-27)

“you shall be plucked from off the land into which you go to possess it.” (Deut. 28:63)

How do we turn ourselves around and come back to G-D, especially while in exile (and thus without the Temple)? Are we told to turn to blood sacrifice? Are we bidden to accept the Messiah when he arrives? No. How does G-D suggest we right our ways?

“But if from there (i.e. foreign lands) you seek the L-RD your G-D, you shall find Him, if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. When you are in trouble, and all these things come upon you, even in the latter days, if you turn to the L-RD your G-D, and obey His voice--for the L-RD your G-D is a merciful G-D--He will not forsake you, nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.” (Deut. 4:29-31)

“And it shall come to pass, if you hearken diligently to the voice of the L-RD your G-D, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command you this day, that the L-RD your G-D will set you on high above all nations of the earth, and all these blessings shall come upon you, and overtake you, if you hearken to the voice of the L-RD your G-D…” (Deut. 28:1-2)

You say “the Temple is not a commandment,” as if I was saying that the Temple is essential for Jewish life, yet you know full well that I have been saying we can keep the Torah without the Temple. It is Christianity, as you demonstrated, that insists the lack of a Temple means we are deficient. What is your purpose is saying this?
(02-07-2014, 12:36 AM)benyosef Wrote: However, your claim that Ezekiel says these were the only righteous people ever is your own opinion, and is not found in Ezekiel’s words.

Yes it is written, Ezekiel says they will 'deliver their own souls' by their own righteousness. That is never written of being capable of Israelites. You're making up other words based on your opinion that have to be written! Yet the words written mean exactly that these three deliver their own souls by their own righteousness. Plain and simple.


(02-07-2014, 12:36 AM)benyosef Wrote: How do we turn ourselves around and come back to G-D, especially while in exile (and thus without the Temple)? Are we told to turn to blood sacrifice? Are we bidden to accept the Messiah when he arrives? No. How does G-D suggest we right our ways?

The Prophet Micah says to remember the law of Moses with the statutes and judgments!

Malachi 4:4
Remember you the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded to him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
This discussion about Ezekiel 14 is an unusual side argument to have, MJ; It began by you asking me how anyone can be righteous, since Ezekiel, as you interpret it, says only three were righteous in history, based on a passage which reads, “Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness…they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.” This interpretation you offer leads to a few questions. For example, would you say that Moses, G-D’s Servant (Joshua 1:1), was not righteous? What about Avraham, G-D’s friend (Isaiah 41:8); was he not righteous either? And how can we say the Messiah will be righteous since he will not be Noah, Daniel, or Job?

When we read the passage, Ezekiel does not say explicitly that these three are the only righteous ones. The only evidence you provided was to say “they will ‘deliver their own souls’ by their own righteousness,” which you say was never an option extended to the Israelites. Looking in the text, what Ezekiel clearly says is that even if these three were in that specific generation of which Ezekiel spoke, their righteousness would not save anyone but them.

So, is it indeed true that no one else can save themselves at all, and that no one else can achieve righteousness? Clearly not, for the Torah says Jacob (Genesis 30:33) and David (II Samuel 22:21-22) were righteous, so we have Biblical proof that there were more than three righteous people in history. But then we have a passage which speaks of the Israelites:

“And He brought us out from thence, that He might bring us in, to give us the land which he swore to our fathers. And the L-RD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the L-RD our G-D, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the L-RD our G-D, as He has commanded us.” (Deuteronomy 6:23-25)

All we need to do is keep the commandments, as we will see below…

MJ Wrote:The Prophet [Micah 4:4] says to remember the law of Moses with the statutes and judgments!

You seem to be getting the hang of this. As you have demonstrated, we are told to remember the Torah of Moses, in which is written several times to keep the commandments. We are never told to believe in or accept the Messiah.


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