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The Plurality of God: without it, there is no salvation
#1
On another thread, a fellow believer question the importance of the doctrine of the "trinity", seeing it caused so much division.

I responded, that the plurality of God is essential. Without it, there can be no salvation.

Myself, I do not like the term "trinity". Not because it is wrong or bad theology, rather , because it has come to have different definitions for different people.

I have declared numerous times: God is a singular being with three distinct Spirits......and refer to Him as a triune being; just as the children are a triune being , having been made in the likeness and image of God.

Anyway, the title of this thread is "the plurality of God: without it there is no salvation".

I would like it if some of you brothers and sisters would move from the back of the class, up to the front. And In doing so, ingage in a bit of lively discussion as to the truth (or not truth) of that statement. God delights in His children honestly thinking and studying to learn about Him and His ways. There is no dumb answers or statements that the Father would laugh at.....the earnest effort bring joy to Him, whether it be correct or amiss.....this is learning and the Father loves it.

Perhaps, coming to the revelation of the truth of this thread might be a truth that destroys the vail over the heart and minds of some of our non-believing Jewish brothers and sisters.

Pray and have at it.....and pray some more.
#2

I don't believe in 3 spirits, so I can't answer on that one.
But will give my thoughts about it, and will write later.

I'm a believing Jew, in the Father. So I am not one of the non-believers.
Maybe I'm also not 1 of ''your'' brothers or sisters. All these terms are a bit vague claims. The Almighty Himself will deside who believes in HIM.
#3
(09-16-2011, 07:06 AM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: I don't believe in 3 spirits, so I can't answer on that one.
But will give my thoughts about it, and will write later.

I'm a believing Jew, in the Father. So I am not one of the non-believers.
Maybe I'm also not 1 of ''your'' brothers or sisters. All these terms are a bit vague claims. The Almighty Himself will deside who believes in HIM.
I do believe in 3 spirits;1. man's spirit, and 2.demonic spirits,and 3. but I believe there is only One Spirit of G-D.When man's spirit becomes joined with G-D it becomes One.The problem lies in separation[Genesis 3:22] Shalom

#4
(09-16-2011, 07:06 AM)Yetzirah231 Wrote: I don't believe in 3 spirits, so I can't answer on that one.
But will give my thoughts about it, and will write later.

I'm a believing Jew, in the Father. So I am not one of the non-believers.
Maybe I'm also not 1 of ''your'' brothers or sisters. All these terms are a bit vague claims. The Almighty Himself will deside who believes in HIM.

I believe you to be a child of God and therefore a brother.....just not a brother who knows his Savior, yet. It is my prayer and hope that in this lifetime you come to such a knowledge of your Savior. Maybe in this thread...... if it develops as I hope.....you will gain some more knowledge of God and His compassion for His children.

Look forward to your thoughts on the title subject of this thread.....and I hope some of my brothers and sisters in Christ add some insight to its truth. We will see. Pray.
#5
(09-16-2011, 07:28 AM)Azriel Wrote: The problem lies in separation[Genesis 3:22] Shalom

What is the problem? Who or What is the "Us"? How does that apply to "there is no salvation , unless God is Plural in essence?

I am making the claim, that, If God was a singular Spiritual Being, there could not be salvation for the children. The salvation of the children is only possible because God (singular) is multiple Spirits in essence.

Pray.
#6
(09-16-2011, 09:45 PM)HonestAbe Wrote:
(09-16-2011, 07:28 AM)Azriel Wrote: The problem lies in separation[Genesis 3:22] Shalom

What is the problem? Who or What is the "Us"? How does that apply to "there is no salvation , unless God is Plural in essence?

I am making the claim, that, If God was a singular Spiritual Being, there could not be salvation for the children. The salvation of the children is only possible because God (singular) is multiple Spirits in essence.

Pray.
Perhaps you could elaborate. I think we might just be mis interpreting what you say;G-D definitely manifests Himself in different forms. I agree G-D singular ; and G-D's Spirit [singular ] , but in different manifestations, and functions, but still one Spirit that can serve different functions at the same time.I believe in the Hebrew context of ;Us , in Genesis 3:22 , defines man's will and spirit has separated from G-D, making plurality of the statement.. Have you ever heard; We are One in the Spirit, we are One in the Lord.Ephesians 4:4
"There is one body, and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;" <p> I believe we are saying the same meaning just with different words; perhaps a good example in itself?Thanks Abe, I really appreciate your input, and I'm sure I'm not alone! Blessings


(09-15-2011, 10:01 PM)HonestAbe Wrote: On another thread, a fellow believer question the importance of the doctrine of the "trinity", seeing it caused so much division.

I responded, that the plurality of God is essential. Without it, there can be no salvation.

Myself, I do not like the term "trinity". Not because it is wrong or bad theology, rather , because it has come to have different definitions for different people.

I have declared numerous times: God is a singular being with three distinct Spirits......and refer to Him as a triune being; just as the children are a triune being , having been made in the likeness and image of God.

Anyway, the title of this thread is "the plurality of God: without it there is no salvation".

I would like it if some of you brothers and sisters would move from the back of the class, up to the front. And In doing so, ingage in a bit of lively discussion as to the truth (or not truth) of that statement. God delights in His children honestly thinking and studying to learn about Him and His ways. There is no dumb answers or statements that the Father would laugh at.....the earnest effort bring joy to Him, whether it be correct or amiss.....this is learning and the Father loves it.

Perhaps, coming to the revelation of the truth of this thread might be a truth that destroys the vail over the heart and minds of some of our non-believing Jewish brothers and sisters.

Pray and have at it.....and pray some more.
There is the triune essence of G-D , I can't deny,of what understands of G-D, but it does not define 3 spirit's, but rather ; G-D Omnipotent and Sovereign, His Word, and His Spirit.If we understand it in a human sense, it would be , lets say yourself; There is the total essence of your whole being[Mind , body, and soul], When you speak, it is your Voice, or an outward action,what you make solid, ,to write down ,or create, to set in physical motion. But yet this creation consists of what manifests from your spirit,or mind,and then is tempered by your heart which verifies what you have calculated with your mind. , but hasn't yet become visible from your human eye, like a document that hasn't been written exists within your thoughts; what you are interpreting ,thinking and feeling to say in response, but not yet have typed. All three of these parts of you work separately, but still singularly , and in unison, because they are of your one body, mind , and soul, which make up the totality of your being.Of course G-D in a much more complex way , is basically the same, man being a part of His Creation, and created ;In His Image all being of One G-D. That's a hard one putting it all in one paragraph! Blessings
#7
Jesus said that he only does what he sees the Father do, which implies Jesus is constrained by the will of the Father, which indicates that they have the same will. That means any kind of distinction between them is largely illusion.

Now of course the doctrine of the Trinity states that the three are ultimately one, so it admits to being an illusion.

I can see why the doctrine came about, and like I said it isn't technically wrong because following and understanding the doctrine means understanding that the doctrine is ultimately an illusion. Also because the doctrine of the Trinity itself is an illusion, it is not polytheism although people do try and say that.

I spoke about multiple personality disorder (dissociative identity disorder) in the last thread. Do you think psychologists consider someone with DID to have actual multiple people living in their heads (instances of spiritual warfare aside for now)? No, what happens is the personality is fractured, generally by extreme trauma, into parts. Ultimately it's the same person throughout.

It's the same thing with God, except we have designed a plan of sorts to help make sense of His different ways of interacting in the world.
#8
There is the triune essence of G-D , I can't deny,of what understands of G-D, but it does not define 3 spirit's, [/quote]

Why do you hold fast to the singular Spirit, God? Opposing that God could have multiple Spirits.

Do you believe within your being, the "singular" you, you have a soul and a spirit (not, refering to the Holy Spirit with term spirit)?

Paul did say, " I pray God preserve your whole body, soul and spirit, blameless....."

And again, "the word of God is powerful......sharper than any two-edged sword, even to the dividing of soul and spirit".

I know this is a divergent from the purpose of this thread, just trying to get people to see the possibility that multiple spirits can be within the essential nature of an individual......and.....add the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the obedient children....that is even another Spirit within the individual.
#9
Dear Abe,

1] You have not offered any 'proof' to substantiate your position for multiple ‘spirits’ in the Godhead.
Azriel asked you to elaborate and all you did was criticize his holding firm to a one spirit Godhead.
2] Why is a multiple spirit Godhead ‘essential’ to ‘salvation’ – could you elaborate on this as well?

Personally I am with Azriel (mostly) – I believe the ‘essence’ or ‘substance’ or ‘nature’ of YHVH is ‘one’.
Both a ‘yachiyd’ oneness AND an ‘echad’ oneness – a oneness of ‘singularity’ with regard to the essential qualitative characteristics that are the yachiyd-ness of the ‘essence’ of YHVH – there is only one that is God – YHVH – but there is also – a oneness of ‘plurality’ with regard to the essential qualitative characteristic that is the echad-ness of the ‘persons’ of YHVH – in the N T they are ‘titled’ ‘the Father’ ‘the Son’ and ‘the Holy Spirit’ – they are the one YHVH.

Now this ‘plurality of persons’ in no way implies a splitting of the ‘personality’ of YHVH. The ‘tri-unity’ of the ‘persons’ of YHVH is exemplified in the N T through the ‘display’ of the ‘’mutual support’ and ‘availability’ of one toward another in the working out of the plan of YHVH for the salvation of men. In his book ‘The Trinity in the Gospel of John’ Royce G. Gruenler brings these ‘mutual support’ and ‘availability’ concepts to the fore.
#10
Dewdrop Wrote:Jesus said that he only does what he sees the Father do, which implies Jesus is constrained by the will of the Father, which indicates that they have the same will. That means any kind of distinction between them is largely illusion.
Simply because `o logos took the form of a man in order to carry out YHVH’s plan of salvation for ‘men’ does not imply any sort of ‘illusion’ in His coming. The N T is very careful to maintain a distinction between the ‘persons’ of the Godhead and at the same time affirms ‘God is one’. 1 John is emphatic that ‘Who is the liar, except the one denying that Jesus is the Christ? This one is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son’ and ‘And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world’ and ‘what we have seen and have heard we declare to you, so that you also shall be having fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.’ There is a distinct ‘separation’ between the ‘persons’ and yet there is a ‘unity’ that cannot be denied.

Quote:I spoke about multiple personality disorder (dissociative identity disorder) in the last thread. Do you think psychologists consider someone with DID to have actual multiple people living in their heads (instances of spiritual warfare aside for now)? No, what happens is the personality is fractured, generally by extreme trauma, into parts. Ultimately it's the same person throughout.
I had to look-up DID:

Dissociative Identity Disorder – a dissociative disorder characterized by the existence in an individual of two or more distinct personalities, with at least two of the personalities controlling the patient's behavior in turns. The host personality usually is totally unaware of the alternate personalities; alternate personalities may or may not have awareness of the others.

These ‘symptoms’ are not what we find ‘displayed’ in the N T – the ‘persons’ of the Godhead in the N T function ‘dependently on’ each other – there is an attitude of ‘mutual support’ and ‘ready availability’ to each other – each is aware of the others ‘presence’ – the point being that this ‘tri-unity’ of the Godhead is not ‘dissociative’ behavior but ‘associative’ behavior – it is the demonstration of the ‘relationship’ that has ‘existed from the beginning’ between the individual ‘persons’ of the Godhead.


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