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A Rigged Game
#1
Christianity can be boiled down to this;

1) God creates man with original sin
2) Then impregnates a woman with himself
3) Gives himself up as a sacrifice to himself
4) To saves us from the sin he condemned us too.


Avraham
#2
1) God creates man with original sin

This, of course, is a huge argument that atheist use as well. This presupposes that "sin" is an act that people do rather than an actual state of being. What this actually seems to be is this: The human state of a sinful existence is the thing which makes us different than all other physical creations. Animals, plants, and minerals, et al do not sin. We humans on the other hand are endowed with the unique ability to disobey the Will of the Creator.. It really is as simple as that.
If we were not given this "ability" than we would be no different than rocks, trees, and dogs.. So the fact of our creation as a sentient being is what makes us unique.. it makes us able to turn away from the Creator.. and thus we are able to TOWARD our Creator.
It's all very ingenious actually.. then again.. it IS from G-D so.. naturally.

2) Then impregnates a woman with himself

You are missing several events here.. hehe. but yes. This is another miracle.. (along side of things like.. Creation) Also this had to be due to the notion that G-D incarnate should not come from the common flesh.

3) Gives himself up as a sacrifice to himself

You must keep in mind that these things did not happen in a vacuum.. G-D had this in mind the ENTIRE time since before creation. G-D KNEW that once He created beings with the capacity for self-identity that they would turn away from Him.. and so he created this process in order to reconcile Himself to His creations..
Look back right after Adam and Eve disobeyed the Creator.. what is the first thing that they tried to do?? COVER their OWN sins with vegetation.. but NO; G-D said that only through BLOOD will sins be covered and so gave them animal skins to wear.. Same concept is shown with Cain and Abel. Only a blood sacrifice will do.. and when the sacrifice is for the entirely of the human race.. it can ONLY be the MOST unblemished Lamb; G-D incarnate.

4) To saves us from the sin he condemned us too.

Once again; it is this sin which makes us WHO we are rather than WHAT we are. Sin is not only the "fallen-ness" of humans but the universe as well.. it is the imperfect mold that we have been brought out of so that we may exist AS individuals within the rest of creation.
You say he has condemned us.. condemned us by creating us. Were we not created with the capacity for sin then we would not be individuals but ..robots or even no different than natural forces like gravity and electricity. This is what most atheists believe as well. So the alternative is that G-D NOT have created us at all?? Well he certainly did create us and here we are: sinners in a fallen state until the Perfected Universe that is in store is revealed.. Why didn't He just reveal it from the beginning? Because he wanted Us to exist with Him IN this perfection in Total and True Love.
#3
Are you saying it was not part of G-D'S plan that Adam and Eve would sin? Saint Paul disagrees.

Another miracle? He inpregnates a woman so that he could be born and be sacrificed for the sin he planned them to commit.

You have no idea what was on G-D'S mind.

Number 4 you made up. It's that WOO_WOO Christian speak, saying a lot that means nothing.

You make G-D out to be a moron,

Avraham

#4
Are you saying it was not part of G-D'S plan that Adam and Eve would sin?

Not at all. Everything that happens is part of G-D's plan for the purpose leading up to the Perfected Universe. This plan seems to involve having fellowship with his creation.. and I daresay that human being that are self-aware are better company than plants and animals..

Another miracle? He inpregnates a woman so that he could be born and be sacrificed for the sin he planned them to commit.

He did not cause them to commit the sin of which you speak.. here merely KNEW that they would commit it and hence it IS part of the plan.

You have no idea what was on G-D'S mind.

False. Scripture tells us what is on G-D's mind. Do you disagree?

Number 4 you made up. It's that WOO_WOO Christian speak, saying a lot that means nothing.

Care to elaborate on exactly what is nonsensical about what I said there or is this your blanket reaction to professed concepts that truly touch a nerve?

You make G-D out to be a moron

How so? Or once again, is this a mere canned response?
#5
Saint Paul tells us that everything was G-D'S plan from the beginning. If G-D knew from the begining and it was His plan why punish Adam and Eve?

Avraham
#6
I MAY be mistaken(naturally) but the only reference to punishment that I can see in The First Book of Moses: Bereʾšyt is Chapter 4:13 when Cain accuses G-D of punishing him.

I do not think that G-D punished Adam and Eve for what they did; though there were undeniable consequences for their disobedience. That being said; it MUST be made clear that YES indeed G-D already knew what was going to happen.. (hence your notion of "rigged game").
G-D is the G-D of Love and He certainly is NOT sitting around laying in wait for us to screw up simply so He can punish us.

When G-D says "Adam, what have you done?"; do you think that this was said in anger and wrath? Not so; this was said in disappointment and sorrow. To think otherwise would intimate that G-D was someone shocked and surprised and thus made angry by this sin.. No way. G-D is by G-D's very nature omniscient. G-D cannot learn anything new. To think that G-D suddenly LEARNED of Adam and Eve sinning and hence blew His top and cursed the Earth and cursed human-kind is a gross misrepresentation and a very very dangerous (and yet widespread) belief.

No; G-D did not punish them. They were victims of the consequences of their OWN disobedience. If G-D told them not to jump off a cliff and they jump off a cliff; you cannot blame G-D for creating gravity.

I hope this helps.

#7
"God creates man with original sin"

This is a flat out lie. Even those who believe in original sin do not believe this, as far as I am aware. There is certainly nothing in the Bible that teaches this. If you want to make a plausible argument, start out with a premise that has some basis in the Bible.
#8
Those who uphold this doctrine look to the teaching of Paul the Apostle in and for its scriptural basis. The lier would then be Saint Paul since he is the one who says it was G-D'S plan from the begining. That is my scriptual basis. Or are you implying G-D did not know?

Only a fool uses that type of charged language in a discussion.


Avraham


"I do not think that G-D punished Adam and Eve for what they did"

What Book are you reading?

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;


Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;


Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.


Avraham
#9
"The lier would then be Saint Paul since he is the one who says it was G-D'S plan from the begining."

The words "original sin" are not found anywhere in the Bible. If you are going to slander God and the Apostle Paul by attributing to him the ideas of "those who hold this doctrine" you are putting yourself in a very bad position. I advise you to desist from this type of claims that cannot be substantiated.
#10
(11-23-2011, 06:25 PM)ThomasDGW Wrote: "The lier would then be Saint Paul since he is the one who says it was G-D'S plan from the begining."

The words "original sin" are not found anywhere in the Bible. If you are going to slander God and the Apostle Paul by attributing to him the ideas of "those who hold this doctrine" you are putting yourself in a very bad position. I advise you to desist from this type of claims that cannot be substantiated.

Thank you Thomas. We agree then "original sin" does not exist. There is no need for "salvation". We have been saying that all along. By the way I'm arguing with you and the good folk here. Do not flatter yoursself into believing you speak for G-D or Saint Paul for that matter. You only speak for Thomas.

Avraham


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