Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Malach HaShem = HaMashiach
#1
There are many instances in The Tanakh regarding the Malach HaShem "Angel of the Lord" and the remarkable events in which this being speaks as G-D in the first person is a heavy indicator that G-D has a manifestation on Earth and before men that is equal and yet seperate to Himself. When this Malach HaShem speaks it speaks AS HaShem.

In Genesis ch22. This Malach HaShem even states in verse 16 that "By myself have I sworn". Who else swears by themselves but G-D? Can this be anything other than an earthly manifestation of G-D?

In Exodus ch14:19 it states that this Angel of the Lord shares its nature with the pillar of cloud that went with the Israelites. Then in Zechariah Ch12:8 a "godlike being" is equated with the Angel of the Lord that went before them. Looking back to Exodus Ch40:34 in which the Cloud (which is already shown to be equated with the Angel of the Lord) is here equated with God's Glory.. so glorious in fact that not even Moses could draw near it..
There are actually many cases in Exodus where the Malach HaShem is clearly equated as G-D.. namely during the manifestation at the burning bush.
This also happens in Judges Ch2, 6, and 13...

I can't see how anyone can think that this Malach HaShem is not an earthly Manifestation of G-D. Does this follow? I think that it is quite clear that G-d can and does have an earthly manifestation which is seperate than His complete infinite nature.

In Malachi Ch3 He says that He shall send His messenger to Prepare the way for His coming. This messenger is NOT the messiah.. this messenger, also mentioned in verse 23 is clearly Elijah the prophet..
Back to Ch3: It states that after the way is prepared by Elijah that the Lord shall suddenly come.. the messenger of the covenant.. Would this same "messenger of the covenant" NOT be the same Malach HaShem that spoke to Abraham and Moses and Joshua and the Judges?
This "malach" of the covenant.. it states to He whom is like the refiners fire "Who can stand before Him?"
Now look at Psalm 130:30.."If Thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?"

This is not a stretch at all. G-D speaks of His return through His Messiah and that this Messiah shares the same attributes as The Lord.. just as the Angel of the Lord, just as the Pillar of Smoke and Fire, just as the Shekhinah.
The Lord changes NOT. These things have always been.

In Isaiah 44:6 there is unquestionable statement the G-D is ALSO King and Redeemer.. This seems to be pretty clear that KING, an earthly station, is here equated with a manifestation of G-D. I am not even going to talk about how the statement here refers to G-D as seperate aspects.. it just seems a bit too hard to ignore.

Please, I ask that if there is something wrong with this interpretation I beg that it be pointed out to me: as I am kind of new to this.
#2
"The Lord changes NOT."

Then he could not become a man.

Avraham

#3
Then he could not become a man.

You have declared that there is something that G-D cannot do; thus making Him to be impotent.

I think that this is answered to in the above wall of text.. Y'shua has always existed; Y'shua is not separate from G-D. Y'shua is another attribute of G-D.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.


I believe if you check that capitalized "LORD" you will find that to be HaShem השם and not Adonai אֲדֹנָי; thus implying G-D to have an actual earthly presence.


#4
"You have declared that there is something that G-D cannot do; thus making Him to be impotent."

Can god make a rock so heavy he cannot pick it up? You are a silly child. G-D himself tells us HE is not a man. If G-D is IMMUTABLE: not capable of or susceptible to change; then becoming a man is a change. If there existed a man in heaven before creation then there is no trinity your god is a tetralogy (four).

"I think that this is answered to in the above wall of text.. Y'shua has always existed; Y'shua is not separate from G-D. Y'shua is another attribute of G-D."

Then he was not a man he became a man which is a contradiction to your prior post.


Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.


Agreed, no Jesus, no Holy Ghost.....etc.

"I believe if you check that capitalized "LORD" you will find that to be HaShem השם and not Adonai אֲדֹנָי; thus implying G-D to have an actual earthly presence."

I believe that if you knew how to read Hebrew you would know that there are no capitals in the Hebrew Langauge. There is a reason we use HaShem and it is lost on you. It refutes your argument.

the more you talk the less you say,

Avraham

#5
If G-D is IMMUTABLE: not capable of or susceptible to change; then becoming a man is a change

G-D can be whatever G-D will be. It does not take you or I to decide on what G-D's will is. You would be speaking blasphemy to claim otherwise. G-D is outside of time and space. If G-D wills to have an aspect of His nature to be a Man than that Man can exist however G-D wills that Man to exist; regardless of what limitations you set on G-D because of your fanatical adherence to Greek logic.
THIS IS NOT G-D CHANGING; THIS IS OUR AWARENESS OF HIM CHANGING.

I believe that if you knew how to read Hebrew you would know that there are no capitals in the Hebrew Langauge. There is a reason we use HaShem and it is lost on you.

I can only believe that you are being purposefully malicious and abrasive here rather than actually believing this. I was pointing out the word LORD in that verse as capitalized because the word LORD in that translation is capitalized and that is the word of which I was speaking. Classic straw-man and way to miss(ignore) the point.
Can you answer to why and how this verse clearly speaks of the NAME of the LORD rather than just LORD and YET speaks of an EARTHLY presence? I highly doubt it at this point.

the more you talk the less you say

more like: The more I talk the less you listen.






#6
G_d manifestation is one of my favorite studies.

Every single time you see LORD ( all capital letters ) in the KJV the Hebrew is always YHWH= He who shall be mighty ones= 6,380 times in the OT
the memorial name for all time.

2,380 times G_d the Hebrew word is "eloheim" " eloyheim " or mighty ones or angels
) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God

Sometimes G_d is the Hebrew word "EL" the power

The translators of the KJV were Christians and they changed the Hebrew to there beliefs of the year 1611. At no time did Abraham, Isaac, or Israel ever call Him G_d.

There is not any history of the Jews calling Him G_d.

It certainly is not His name.

YHWH says in Jeremiah" they have forgotten my name for Baal." Baal was called GAWD by the pagans. That is were the name comes from.

Remember when it says that King David spoke with G_d it is saying he spoke with the angels, that makes sense.

May YHWH bless your study of His Holy OT
#7
"G-D can be whatever G-D will be."

Your god apparently can but not the G-D of Israel. "I am not a man" not sure how much clearer He could be?

Avraham

#8
Your god apparently can but not the G-D of Israel. "I am not a man" not sure how much clearer He could be?

It is not clear at all and your logic cannot work.
In the case of Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent
He is clearly speaking in a specific context. This you cannot deny; otherwise you will contradict all of the times that it is reported that G-D repented (נָחַם).
Exodus 32:14:And the LORD repented
Deuteronomy 32:36:For the LORD will judge His people, and repent
1 Samuel 15:35:and the LORD repented
Psalm 135:14:For the LORD will judge His people, and repent
Jeremiah 15:6: I am weary with repenting


ET CETERA

Your logical fallacy would also naturally carry over to Hosea 11:9 as well.
And please do not accuse me of believing that G-D's Word contains contradictions. All that this indicates that that no human language could ever truly describe what G-D is and does; but only as far as our physical time/space universe can contain it.





#9
Too many Christians fall for these twisted misconceptions of God that misrepresent him as being just like them. All I all hear are many unbiblical ideas offered as if they were gospel truth, pun intended—and such error can lead one into horrible emotional and spiritual bondage to an idea of G-D that is not G-D.

Where does G-D speak anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures? He doesn't! It's a story being told to us by other humans in human language.

Avraham
No capital letters in the Hebrew language.....none! And the name you wrote is the Tetragrammaton which has no pronunciation. No one knows G-D'S name. Only HIS actions and attributes which you mis-apply as HIS names.


Avraham

#10
twisted misconceptions of God that misrepresent him as being just like them

I am not sure if this in response to my above post or not; In the case that it is it would appear that you are twisting my words to be saying that I believe that the LORD actually repents (changes His mind) like man does; but in the final paragraph of my post you will see that I actually agree with you that no actual physical text that exist in Malkuth can ever truly represent the one and true infinite G-D.
If that was not directed at my post; then I apologize for butting in.

Where does G-D speak anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures? He doesn't! It's a story being told to us by other humans in human language

I do not understand your point in stating this. Do you NOT then believe that G-D is perfect in all things and that Holy Scripture is... well.. NOT Holy? Are you saying that G-D is just "winging it"?

I have recently read that a Jew may actually be a self-professed atheist and yet still be considered to be righteous through the Law but that if they do declare their belief in the LORD's Redeemer that they are kicked out of synagogues. This would seem to fit in better with your ideas of twisting G-D's word and transforming it into a mere emotional crutch; no different than yet another "self-help" program.

Based on your seeming disbelief that the scripture if the Holy Word of G-D I really fail to see what your point is to any of this that you are doing. However I will say that I do respect your integrity you may be sorry to hear that these discussions with you has done wonders in this Goy's quest for learning about the G-D of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

However it is a bit disappointing and does give me sadness to hear that you may not believe that your own scripture is inspired by G-D but is yet another concoction of men.



Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)