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Jews vs Evolution? Jews & Evolution?
#1
Hi there,

I'm having trouble feeling out my thoughts about Evolution and it occured to me, that I know some Jews who could help! You guys!

Where does Evolution fit, in Jewish culture?
Is it there as a fallback, a joke, a stopgap?
Does the Torah say "It cannot be a god of yours, besides G|d"?

Basically, what appeal does it have to the Jewish way of thinking?

I'm not asking for this to be a discussion of the Holocaust, but I understand you may feel that is relevant... that is, that you could easily respond in that context (have I been graceful enough, maturely speaking?). Not many people I have communicated with or seen talking about Evolution see any relationship with Nazi Germany, at all - so that's why I'm tentative about whether mentioning it is really helpful at all. I don't even know if it makes sense to say any kind of action is related to a theory of Evolution, since to date no one has spontaneously created life of any kind (why scientists are determined to start with nothing is beyond me, but there you go).

EDIT: For example, why is it that Jews have never presumed to call themselves exclusive in some fleshly way (you might think that's obvious, but they never do), whereas an Evolutionist will say "Yes, I have a special, evolved body".

EDIT #2: Wow this is great, I think G|d is leading me somewhere with this: Why do Jews not say "I have an evolved language"? Even Noam Chomsky only ever says "man has a special, language ability" without attempting to say how "he" got it.
#2
The name Jewish culture is westernized termonology, difficult to define what it includes.

- But let me try.
First of all we can't replace God for a certain system. Let's say: even if we can create life we still are not as Good as God, nor did we become Gods.

As long as The Almighty and Torah doesn't say that it didn't happen, things could be open for discussion. The Torah doesn't say that G'd didn't create life on Mars, so a clame like ''Men on Mars can't be posible'' can't be biblically proven.

God created Adam and Eve, and indeed they could have looked a bit smaller, or different. Torah doesn't say that evolution not possible. And the Evolution THEORY, is still in that stage that they only proofed that within a certain spiecies they have seen 4 steps of evolution... Ears became larger, or bones did develop etc. But not that 1 animal transfered to another animal. Or an human into an ape. In the middle-ages people were smaller than nowadays, but before that there were giants like Goliath.
And maybe The Almighty Himself did the evolutional work.

In Judaism there are a few ''cultures'' of thinking.
You might have the East European Orthodox, who stopped discussing about Universities approaches. Because there was to much extreme bible-criticism and religeous wars about it, they only dived into Talmud, and will not discuss Tenach with non-Jews. In that sence they will not discuss evolution or other things eather for the wars that were created around it.

There is the story that Abraham and Sarah created new souls, as is written in Tenach. Does that realy mean that they create new human beings is a side-discussion in Judaism. A not important one, because still The Almighty Himself is the founder of ALL, it doesn't mean that Abraham just found out a nice trick and that it was his main hobby and wanted patentrights and a university around it. It's written souls! It was The Almighty who created Adam, and then blew the Ruach in his nose and in that sence Adam's soul came alive. IF people could create life, it is still necessary that somebody gives a SOUL into it, and that the person understands his soul, etc. Maybe we should worship less: Life, but focus on the soul.

Around 1200 CE slowly Alchemy and universities came from the Arab lands towards Europe. In this envolvement all started to play again with the concept of creating new chemistry and new life. The Church was officially against it, and wanted universities only to teach math, music etc. BUT the Vatican did set up their own project of trying to create Gold from other substances etc.
In Judaism there were kabbalistic/mysticall people who tried to create new metals too, and tried to creat new things or life with words etc.
The story of dr. Frankenstein and the story of the Golem of Prague are later examples. Although Frankenstein might have been more a culture against Jewish doctors, and the Golem of Prague is more a story of Ethics.
To be continued >>>

>>>

Around WW2, all kind of universities over the world, tried to set up new medicall theories about races, bloodlines, pure blood etc. this was based on theories that started to exist aroun 1850, that Native Americans and Jews can't be human according to some theologians. And that like Blavatsky and others tried to clame that all religions come from the Arian countries and they spoke INDO-GERMANIC languages. So parts of India/Persia and Sanskrit became popular as the bases of all religions and races. It's written in the Veda's that Northern white Arians are a better race than Southern Black Arians.
Himmler and Hitler became vegetarians to become closer to the Northern white Arian concept, but to stay in better bloodshape, Hitler got injections with certain animalfats.
The universities and Germans tried all kind of Concepts that Jews and I think Christians should not support as if it's the new truth or God.

Himmler was just sometimes in his sparetime busy with mysticall things. In his Castle in Wewelsburg, the headoffice of the SS, he had a hall, with 12 seats around him, with on the floor the ''burning cross called SS Schwarze Sonne'' that should reign everything from impurity. The 12 leaders of the SS were his disciples etc. They had all kind of symbolism to create a better race. But during the war they didn't had much time for this hobby's or they just didn't take it to seriously. It was a nice propaganda-method, the first group that in 1920 came with purification of the race and used the swastika as their logo, were the ''new templars''.
The order is much older see:
http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swas_lambach.html

It shows that people and religions should be aware of theories that can start to live their own LIFES. Creating Life to a theory can be more dangerous than creating lifes.

Be well.

Can't edit the post.>>>
The swastika was used by the ''new templars'' in 1907, the group started in 1900.
lanz von liebenfels and others combined these idea's of racial purity and mystical thought. Hitler was just a student.
#3
As a Spiritual Israelite rather than one by blood or belief, I, too, am interested in the Jewish religious perspective on this topic. Smile
#4
(01-05-2012, 03:19 AM)Godservant Wrote: Where does Evolution fit, in Jewish culture?

It can not be found anywhere in scripture that we should acknowledge such a process. So I would say it doesn't fit.

(01-05-2012, 03:19 AM)Godservant Wrote: Is it there as a fallback, a joke, a stopgap?

To me it is. They just don't stop with evolution, I mean, God could allow the passing down of alleles from generation to generation. Yet, many evolutionists believe they actually descend from a line of Monkey tracing back to a sea creature. That to me is a joke.

(01-05-2012, 03:19 AM)Godservant Wrote: Does the Torah say "It cannot be a god of yours, besides G|d"?

Sure, when we're told to worship God as our maker, that is what we do. That is who the credit for our creation goes to.

(01-05-2012, 03:19 AM)Godservant Wrote: Basically, what appeal does it have to the Jewish way of thinking?

I would be careful with asking about Jewish thinking. There are Jews who would love to mold your mind to fit their way. "Well the Jewish thinking is..." C'mon, it isn't common among us, you have Hebrews who are atheists, deists etc. Jewish thought at its basic Biblical principle is to worship God and thank God for providing for our every need and salvation. But this is also for everyone too, so God wants our thoughts and wants directed toward God.

(01-05-2012, 03:19 AM)Godservant Wrote: EDIT: For example, why is it that Jews have never presumed to call themselves exclusive in some fleshly way (you might think that's obvious, but they never do), whereas an Evolutionist will say "Yes, I have a special, evolved body".

This part I'm not sure exactly why. However, I think believers are exclusive, and all others non-believers are animals. I mean just look at what these atheists begin to believe, that they descend from animals and if you go back far enough they believe they came out of the sea.

(01-05-2012, 03:19 AM)Godservant Wrote: EDIT #2: Wow this is great, I think G|d is leading me somewhere with this: Why do Jews not say "I have an evolved language"? Even Noam Chomsky only ever says "man has a special, language ability" without attempting to say how "he" got it.

Because language is due to the creation ability of God. The Tower of Babel is a good starting point. Noam Chomsky can't say for sure how they got it because he doesn't know for certain, just like not even their belief that sea creature > monkey > man is an absolute truth.




#5
"Because language is due to the creation ability of God. The Tower of Babel is a good starting point."

I'm curious as to why you believe this?

Genesis 10:5
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, every one after his tongue.

Genesis 10:20
These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues.

Genesis 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues.

Why is the Tower of Babel a good starting point? Obviously different languages predate it. The phrase "The Tower of Babel" does not actually appear in the Torah; it is always, "the city and its tower" (אֶת-הָעִיר וְאֶת-הַמִּגְדָּל) or just "the city" (הָעִיר).

Avraham
#6
Evolution is so easy to explain when we look at what we are told in Genesis.
Eloheim the angels the mighty ones created all things mature.

Adam was created mature as if he had been there before.
The trees were created mature as if they were there before.

If you cut the tree open you would see rings proving it had been there for 100's of years.
The fish were created mature as if they had been alive for years.

Dinosaurs were created mature as if they were here before.
Eve was created mature as if she was alive for years.

The whales were created mature as if they were here forever.

Gen 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Do not limit the power of G_d to create things as if they were here for along time!!
The Earth was created as if it has been here for along time.

#7
(01-05-2012, 02:53 PM)elvispelvis888 Wrote: Evolution is so easy to explain when we look at what we are told in Genesis.
Eloheim the angels the mighty ones created all things mature.

Adam was created mature as if he had been there before.
The trees were created mature as if they were there before.

If you cut the tree open you would see rings proving it had been there for 100's of years.
The fish were created mature as if they had been alive for years.

Dinosaurs were created mature as if they were here before.
Eve was created mature as if she was alive for years.

The whales were created mature as if they were here forever.

Gen 1:20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Do not limit the power of G_d to create things as if they were here for along time!!
The Earth was created as if it has been here for along time.

Proxima is 4.22 light years from Earth. with the slowest: Ion drive propulsion it would take 81,000 years to get there. That's at or near the end of our Galaxy. Explain this?

Avraham
#8
Quote:(why scientists are determined to start with nothing is beyond me, but there you go).

..because their souls lust after the Tree of Life because of their Knowledge.

I am curious; do Jews believe that Death began with the Curse on the Earth?
Scripture seems to imply that there was no death before that.. so I don't see how evolution(as origin of life) can be reconciled with scripture since evolution is dependent on death.

Scripture, such as Isaiah 11:6, seems to imply that all death is simply a result of the curse which will one day be lifted.
#9
Here is one perspective you might enjoy.

http://torahanytime.com/Dr/Gerald_Schroeder/

#10
(01-05-2012, 01:23 PM)Avraham Wrote: "Because language is due to the creation ability of God. The Tower of Babel is a good starting point."

I'm curious as to why you believe this?

Why is the Tower of Babel a good starting point? Obviously different languages predate it. The phrase "The Tower of Babel" does not actually appear in the Torah; it is always, "the city and its tower" (אֶת-הָעִיר וְאֶת-הַמִּגְדָּל) or just "the city" (הָעִיר).

Avraham

8. And the Lord scattered them from there upon the face of the entire earth, and they ceased building the city. ח. וַיָּפֶץ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֹתָם מִשָּׁם עַל פְּנֵי כָל הָאָרֶץ וַיַּחְדְּלוּ לִבְנֹת הָעִיר:
9. Therefore, He named it Babel, for there the Lord confused the language of the entire earth, and from there the Lord scattered them upon the face of the entire earth. ט. עַל כֵּן קָרָא שְׁמָהּ בָּבֶל כִּי שָׁם בָּלַל יְ־הֹוָ־ה שְׂפַת כָּל הָאָרֶץ וּמִשָּׁם הֱפִיצָם יְ־הֹוָ־ה עַל פְּנֵי כָּל הָאָרֶץ:

Since God confused their languages, it is easy to know God designed language to begin with. That is why it is a good start, because these verses provide a great example of how God is the creator of language.

(01-05-2012, 01:23 PM)Avraham Wrote: Genesis 10:5
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands, every one after his tongue.

Genesis 10:20
These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues.

Genesis 10:31
These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues.

Since Shem isn't mentioned as being one of the Gentiles, why do you believe Abraham is a Gentile?


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