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To Some On Here, Naming Names
#11
Katarina Wrote:Dear brother Goy.
You address your post to me among others.
I have a few statements for you to consider. You say that I put Catholicism over the Bible. That’s naturally not how I see it. But the Bible is the heart of the Church. Indeed it came out of the Church, when the Church had already been long in existence and It was preserved by the Church. If you don’t recognize Church authority then neither can you recognize the canon that was agreed upon by the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you say the Church was misled then you are making a liar out of the Lord who promised that death would not prevail against His Church. You would have me choose Catholicism over the Bible. But this is absurd. Catholicism is only a name that describes the teachings of the Church. This Church is the Bride of Christ. You cannot separate Jesus from His bride, and you cannot separate Bible from tradition. Yes.. you also have a tradition whether you recognize it or not. The question is, do you have the guts to ask who your authority is when it comes to interpretation. Your self? How comforting.. or what? There are 30,000 evangelical denominations in America alone, and only one Catholic Church that teaches not according to the spirit of the times or the individual hunch that plants a new church on every street corner and multiplies by division, sometimes calling fellow brothers damned. I want you to pray over some passages from the Bible. And I am not out to give you a rough time, but I wanna tell you that I have been an evangelical Lutheran for my whole life until some few years ago, and becoming a Catholic, on the basis of Scripture, I dared look into the claims of Catholicism and found that they were true.
"You are Kefas and on this rock I will build My Church" “I prayed for you Peter, and when you turn, then strengthen your brothers”.. "Guard my lambs.. be a shepherd to my sheep…guard My sheep”.  "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth"..
Why did Jesus choose 12 apostles, my brother? ..if any interpreter is just as good as the other and the Bible just came falling out of the sky.. why the need for elders and councils and the laying on of hands by the first apostles for these ministries if all you need is your Bible.. all these things are written therein..  Try and look around and ask your self. You can start by asking: where are the words “Sola Scriptura” found in the Bible? In the Old Covenant the Lord had a threefold priesthood guarding the interpretation of His laws and decrees.. and Jesus even said: “Obey them because they sit on the Chair of Moses, but do not imitate them” let me bring to your attention that the concept Moses’ chair is not found explicitly in the OT, but Jesus still recognized this need for order and authority. The authority was there, even when the person holding the office was fallible, just as it is today with ordained priests and the chair of Peter. In the New Covenant He has not left us fatherless but has guided the Church according to His own promise. Even in times of distress and poverty in the Bride, the Bridegroom is ever faithful.
Predestination?… “And all mankind will see God’s salvation”
“Then came a man, sent from God, his name was John, he came to give testimony about the light in order that ALL would come to believe by him”. “And everyone who received Him He gave the right to be called Children of God” “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” Therefore it was by faith, so that it could be by grace, so that the promise could remain for all his descendants..” “Him who did not spare His son but gave Him for us all…”  etc. The claims of predestination is not only perverse but also illogical when you consider the whole work of salvation from the beginning. The only predestination there is.. and which I think you get mixed up, is the law that sin leads to death. And the one who denies Christ and remains in sin is determined to die and suffer damnation.
The Muslims believe that their god created some people with the intention to destine them for the eternal fires, from the beginning. Try looking at the wounds of Jesus and then look into His Eyes while telling Him that you believe in that kind of teaching.

Praised be the Name of Jesus <><

you forgot something....." i will be with you til the consumation of the world" .that jesus also said to peter just before he ascended to the ancient of days.

now i noticed that a couple of jews for jesus here have come to realize that it not by baptism grace alone (sola gracia) but by grace and obedience. this is progress over what they were saying in this forum a couple years ago. this let me say that relate to katrina said.

it was martin luther who started that sola scripture and sola gracia stuff. now id like to make this point. if jews are willing to concede that it takes more than baptism to be saved, then shouldnt they take another look at the church? i mean if luther was wrong about the sola gracia, what does this to say about his rejection of the church? i mean that protestants exist only because of him and now they are seeing that grace and obedience is needed and that not his teaching. you rejecting martin luther teaching now but you are still protestant?????

katrina is absolutely correct when she says that the church existed and was teaching gospel before the evangelists wrote it! the church, being jewish in spirit are technically jews. descendants of jews. they have a oral gospel same like the jews have an oral torah because their religion is a perfected or completed judaism.

like i told you guys before....if sola scriptura was the truth, then your faith changes every time the NIV or some other bible is REVISED.

the church protector of the faith.

the NIV is the worst bible for revisions there is.

the mountain of torah forms the base of gods holy mountain and the gospel is established " as the top of the mountains" it completes the mountain and is part of it. christs temple/ church, rests on top of it.

did you see in both old and new testaments it says that the mountain was cleaved north to south and half of it slid down in the valley? this is showing that when jesus divided the good jews from the bad by his gospel, that toral mountain split and the 'sliding into the valley' part was the bad jews breaking away from god, actually the son of god. they went into a 'valley' because it metphor for below the faith. land is faith and a valley is a low point in the land. the mountain was then raised per isaias 2.2 and this toward heaven.

the mountain is knowledge and the church has it. that why the temple is on the top, the mountain of the lords house.

now gospel tells us that jesus establishes this mountain of gospel and that mean the lords house is there. do you see it? its the "mountain of the lords house" so, where is the house? martin luther cannot tell you where ist is but i can and katrina can. the resting place of god is called his "footstool" in many bible places and rome is the footstool of the catholic church!

the bible is a tool of the church and not the church! you cant take the churchs tools and revise them and make your own church. in all law, i noticed this flaw. people tend to forget about the SPIRIT which all law is meant to serve, and then serve the letter of the law and not the law. this is the thing wrong with rjudaism. they "avoid a gnat and swallow a camel." that jesus said and he meant.

the nazis on trial served the letter of the law? (their defense) they were found guilty because they did not serve the spirit of the law which is greater than the law. law is for the spirit and not, spirit for the law. this is another reason why sola scriptura alone is not enuf. the bible not for any one person interpretation and we need the age old wisdom to define and interpret it for us.

GoOD ONE, katrina. you guys need listen up. its true.
#12
GoyOfY'shua Wrote:
Baptistic Wrote:
GoyOfY'shua Wrote:2. Only faith by grace and predestiny can save, and how predestiny is is thoroughly described in Romans and Ephesians.

Baptistic:  GoyOfY'shua, [ ... ]

Predestination means more to those in Christ.  The doctrine of predestination is not the message for the unsaved; the gospel is.  Regarding predestination, God is shown to be absolutely sovereign in all things, including who He calls.  I think that is a good place to put the "period":  God is sovereign.  Following that, if a person is concerned whether he would ultimately be rejected by God no matter what he "does," remember, it's not by works (Eph. 2:9), and, Y'shua says, whosoever comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).  Notice vv. 35-36 before that; it is important to believe on Y'shua, not just to listen to Him or think well of Him.

[ ... ]

God sovereignly called those people in the OT times--Adam, Noah, Abraham, and in NT times, His apostles including Paul ... all the way to you and me, if we have ears to hear.  The Spirit and the Bride say, come! (Revelation 22:17)

I said it was by faith, and predestiny is even relevant to the Gospel. That's why so many are confused about the Gospel: If anyone could just come to God, the bible would say so. But Romans 3 and 9 explain predestiny.

Baptistic:  The Bible says, in two places I have bolded and enlarged in my quote here, that anyone can come.  A good, Baptist preacher rightly follows the lead of scripture in that respect, for God Himself throughout gives a general invitation to all.  Why? because Y'shua died for all.  But the Bible also tells of God's sovereignty over His creation and His people, the called.  This does not negate His general invitation to all; it affirms God's sovereignty.  The doctrine of predestination should be a comfort to those who are in Christ; but it has the strange effect of fatalism on the unsaved, especially when predestination is coupled with the message of the gospel.  When Paul spoke regarding predestination, he was speaking to believers, those already in Christ.  It was meaningful to them.  It is not meaningful to the unsaved.
#13
Jack Lavictoire Wrote:2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


How profoundly sad a thing it is to realize that those who have been born of God's Spirit don't recognize their own Father. That they've been deceived so greatly that they fail to recognize their own Father. It must simply brake His heart! My friend, were in Babylon and we haven't known it.

Baptistic:  Jack, this is a discussion forum.  And it would help the discussion a lot of you could blink back those crocodile tears and present your comments without the drama.  For, you see, those persuaded of the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Y'shua are apt to wonder why you do not see the irony of your quote from scripture about rightly dividing the word of truth:

Have you any understanding what it means to have been born of God? What it means to have been born of the Spirit? To have been born again? Can you actually read this page and look Jesus in the face and tell Him that you haven't been born of His Father's Spirit? That you've been born of a third being?

Baptistic:  It is telling that those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity always deny the deity of Y'shua, and maintain that Y'shua is finally not God.  You have presented your persuasion in the most contradictory terms (e.g., found in the thread Denying Jesus, among others [and to all you could finally not respond]), and despite numerous contradictions and proofs presented to you from scripture by myself and others, most extensively by Brianroy, you remain here foaming out your own shame (Jude 1:12-13).  It defies all godly reason; but here you are.

Oh that we would reject what has been passed down to us and rejoice in the fact that we've been born of His Spirit. Children of God, born of His Spirit.

Brother, to have been born again means that you've been born of God's Spirit. That God is your Father! Men have been telling us lies for so long that we fail to recognize our own Father. We scorn people for not recognizing the day of His Son's visitation and yet we fail to recognize our own Father. We debate God's word with impunity and yet this infinitely holy being dwells in us, and we fail to recognize Him!

Baptistic:  But the fact is, this has a lot to do with what your problem is.  This is the apostle John speaking to his "little born ones":  

1 John 2  18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.  19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.  20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Jack, you cannot help yourself but say what you are:  an antichrist.


Brother, if you don't believe me ask Him what the following means.

Luke 11:11-13 (New King James Version)
If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"


Baptistic:  Jack, I will leave that up to you to research all the many scriptures already shown to you regarding the Person of the Father, the Person of the Son, and the Person of the Holy Spirit.  But here in this scripture from Luke you present a good picture of what you are handing to God's people and those who would be God's people:  an inedible, poisonous, and painful false doctrine.  In God's eyes, even an evil man can give good things to those he loves.  But it follows that, a child of the devil (John 8:44) will offer the inedible, the poisonous, and the painful all packaged in superlatives and spiritual goo.  Someone who came out from us, but was not of us.
#14
Jack Lavictoire Wrote:2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


How profoundly sad a thing it is to realize that those who have been born of God's Spirit don't recognize their own Father. That they've been deceived so greatly that they fail to recognize their own Father. It must simply brake His heart! My friend, were in Babylon and we haven't known it.

Have you any understanding what it means to have been born of God? What it means to have been born of the Spirit? To have been born again? Can you actually read this page and look Jesus in the face and tell Him that you haven't been born of His Father's Spirit? That you've been born of a third being?

Oh that we would reject what has been passed down to us and rejoice in the fact that we've been born of His Spirit. Children of God, born of His Spirit.

Brother, to have been born again means that you've been born of God's Spirit. That God is your Father! Men have been telling us lies for so long that we fail to recognize our own Father. We scorn people for not recognizing the day of His Son's visitation and yet we fail to recognize our own Father. We debate God's word with impunity and yet this infinitely holy being dwells in us, and we fail to recognize Him! Brother, if you don't believe me ask Him what the following means.

Luke 11:11-13 (New King James Version)
If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

Maybe you've not understood, Jack. You've been a Unitarian. There is a Trinity, an Elohim. Don't debase me.
#15
Baptistic,

If you take the time to read what I believe you would see that I do in fact believe in the eternal Son of God. I don't know why your going out of your way to make my experience here unpleasent but I assure you that calling a child of God an antichrist isn't going to go down well.

Why not read my site http://www.beholdhecomes.net and then if you still think that I don't believe in Christ mook on...

#16
Well Goy and Baptistic....
   I haven't seen anywhere that I or Jack or anyone else that believes in One God and His Name which is Jesus have ever denied the deity of Jesus.
We have stated fact.
Fact 1 : I and my father are one....Jesus is the Father personified
Fact 2: The father will send a comforter in my name...what name?
            Jesus' Name
Fact 3: In him dwelleth the godhead bodily..Father,son,Holy Ghost=Jesus

Now you've avoided my question...what is the name of the Father
                                               what is the name of the Holy Ghost
the son we agree is Jesus.
you say there are 3 persons...so you must know the name of the other 2 persons of the godhead...Father and Holy Ghost aren't names...

every Hebrew and every Holy Ghost led Christian knows there is only ONE GOD...Those who listen to the Holy Ghost know his name is Jesus.

Plus the Trinity has been disproven even by those institutions that formed that heresy.

Having eyes to see they will not see...having ears to hear they will not see  
#17
GoyOfY'shua Wrote:
Jack Lavictoire Wrote:2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


How profoundly sad a thing it is to realize that those who have been born of God's Spirit don't recognize their own Father. That they've been deceived so greatly that they fail to recognize their own Father. It must simply brake His heart! My friend, were in Babylon and we haven't known it.

Have you any understanding what it means to have been born of God? What it means to have been born of the Spirit? To have been born again? Can you actually read this page and look Jesus in the face and tell Him that you haven't been born of His Father's Spirit? That you've been born of a third being?

Oh that we would reject what has been passed down to us and rejoice in the fact that we've been born of His Spirit. Children of God, born of His Spirit.

Brother, to have been born again means that you've been born of God's Spirit. That God is your Father! Men have been telling us lies for so long that we fail to recognize our own Father. We scorn people for not recognizing the day of His Son's visitation and yet we fail to recognize our own Father. We debate God's word with impunity and yet this infinitely holy being dwells in us, and we fail to recognize Him! Brother, if you don't believe me ask Him what the following means.

Luke 11:11-13 (New King James Version)
If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

Maybe you've not understood, Jack. You've been a Unitarian. There is a Trinity, an Elohim. Don't debase me.

There is no Trinity never has been...man made doctrine
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,justified in the Spirit,seen of angels,preached unto the Gentiles,believed on in the world,recieved up into glory."

God manifest in flesh=Jesus justified in the Spirit=Jesus
seen of angels=Jesus Preached unto the Gentiles=Jesus
believed on in the world = Jesus recieved up into glory=Jesus
That one scripture alone blows Trinitarian doctrine out of the water.
As I have said before there is NO Jew that believes in anything but ONE GOD and the idea of 3 person god is anathema to them.
So if you can't sell it to Gentiles how do you figure to sell it to Jews?

Having eyes to see they will not see...having ears to hear they will not hear
#18
Jack Lavictoire Wrote:Baptistic,

If you take the time to read what I believe you would see that I do in fact believe in the eternal Son of God. I don't know why your going out of your way to make my experience here unpleasent but I assure you that calling a child of God an antichrist isn't going to go down well.

Why not read my site http://www.beholdhecomes.net and then if you still think that I don't believe in Christ mook on...

Jack, your complaint about your "experience" is not valid. Your own site, which you bring here by links, tells of your willingness to be called such things as "blasphemer" for the sake of continuing on in your persuasions. You are avoiding what you have said here at JFJ. Here at JFJ, you have plainly insisted that Jesus is not God. It is beside the point that you also maintain that Jesus is eternal. Obviously you mean something different by that against the Statement of Faith at this site, which you have contradicted. Therefore, it is a fair expectation that you should answer without avoidance, and not just complain about being challenged.

If you doubt what I am saying, then please search for all my posts and find the ones addressed to you where I give reference to the thread and/or your actual quotations.

I think it is appropriate in your case to call you "an antichrist," because your claims concerning Y'shua are in line with that described by the apostle John, and you disregard the words of the Lord Jesus concerning His deity, and you urge those who have believed to abandon what they know in favor of your error. This shows a conscious decision to go a certain way, which is away from the truth.

Better to address this "unpleasantness" here than for you to find out too late.
#19
YehudiahOfYeshua Wrote:There are people on here who I want to address. Here's why:

...2. Only faith by grace and predestiny can save, and how predestiny is is thoroughly described in Romans and Ephesians...

Your words on this are an open contradiction; I'm sorry. For if anyone was/is "predestined" to be saved, then salvation would not be by "grace," seeing how it then was not free, grace meaning 'free' salvation; seeing how predestination would then be a form of 'forced' salvation.

And if some are "predestined" to be saved, and others aren't, then that would also mean that those who aren't are then "predestined" to receive eternal damnation, no matter what they do; would it not?

The Bible can only be properly interpreted by the Spirit of God, he who wrote the Scriptures, and as it says, its true interpretations are "hidden" to the "natural man" (I Corinthians 2:7-16; etc.). This then results in as many misinterpretations of the "hidden" Scriptures as there are those trying to interpret it through their natural understanding.

Again, I'm sorry, but you are not correct. God does not "predestine" some men to be saved, and other men to be lost. It is his will that "ALL" should come to be saved, just as the Scriptures state:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - II Peter 3:9; etc.

You are simply in serious error, if I am interpreting you correctly on this; I'm sorry.

Ruht
#20
There are two plural forms in the Hebrew language, one form that means two, and another form that means three or more.  Elohim is the plural of El (God), and it means three or more.  Literally it could be translated ‘Gods’.  Since Elohim is used about 2700 times in the Old Testament and  since the God of Israel is called Elohim, Joseph Smith (Mormon founder) insisted that the Bible teaches us to believe in not one God but many Gods.

However, the Bible does not support the Mormon-pagan-occult belief that Elohim signifies a plurality of Gods.  It is true that Elohim literally means ‘Gods’.  For this reason, the Muslim or Jehovah’s Witness cannot maintain that the God of the Bible is a single Personage.  He is nearly always called Elohim.  Why then did the Jews not believe in many Gods?  Because Elohim repeatedly said, “I the Lord your Elohim am one God!’ At the burning bush, Moses asked God (Elohim) who he should tell the children of Israel had sen to them.  Exodus 3:14, 15 KJV states:

And God (Elohim) said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM…Say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you…that is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations’.  

There is something peculiar and unique about this God who uses the plural word for Elohim for Himself and yet says I AM THAT I AM.  Elohim never says WE ARE THAT WE ARE.  Deuteronomy 6:4 gives one of the most important declarations, one that every good Jew knows by heart: ‘Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God (Elohim) is one Lord’.  In hundreds of Bible verses in the Old Testament we are told: Elohim is one Lord, Elohim is one God.  The same God (Elohim) who said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness’ declares that He (never they) is (never are) one God.

This remains a mystery to the Jew and Muslim alike.  If God is one and not many, then why does he reveal himself as Elohim and not as El?  And it contradicts Mormonism and occultism for Elohim to declare that He is one God and that there is no other true God but Him.  The only possible reconciliation of these statements is in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Persons, yet they are one God.  When Jesus said, ‘I and my Father are one’ John 10:30 he didn’t mean merely ‘one in purpose, one in agreement’ as both the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons teach.  Jesus meant that He and His father are literally one in essence and being in the very way that Elohim claims to be one God and one Lord.  No human can ever be one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father, because Jesus is God, while we are not and never will be God.



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