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Jesus Gave False Prophecy in the Olivet Discourse
#1
Jesus gave false prophecy in the Olivet Discourse, and even a Christian apologist is willing to admit it!


Quote:“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side....

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined.

C.S. Lewis, The World’s Last Night

(I am starting this thread to discuss the issue of whether Jesus gave false prophecy, but I am not interested in Preterism here. I am willing to debate Preterism, but start a different thread for it.)
#2
Try looking at the Greek for generation and take it from there.  Do your homework before making false accusations.
#3
Sad 
THE PROCESS SAID:   Sad

     "Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.” ...
  

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

_____________________________________________________________

"Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
So you also, when you see these things happening, know that it is near -
at the doors!
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation [the generation at the time of the RESTORATION] will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. ["The grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of our G-D stands forever." ISA. 40:8]
But of THAT day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." MARK 13:28-31

In other words, when you see [the restoration of Israel, the "Fig Tree"]
realize, that Jerusalem didn't fall till AM 4122 (AD 70), which was 40 yrs. after Jesus was crucified. So he was speaking to that future generation; US. This happened in AD 1948; all the people alive at that time will not perish till all things that he mentioned are fulfilled.

  "AND THE FIG TREE IS BUDDING!!"

Realize also, Jesus only speaks the words that are given to him by the Father.
Know also that G-D NEVER reveals before hand, although HE is omnicient
the time someone repents. Israel still rejects her CHRIST, and if they continue to have a flint-face, He will overturn the 3rd Millennium, which began AM 5948 (AD 1896).

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
"See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!"  (LUKE 13:34-35)  

I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
I will scatter you among the nations  and draw out a sword  after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.  LEVITICUS 26:32-33

"And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be  left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you."
DEUTERONOMY 4:27     Sad

"But from there you will seek the LORD your G-D, and you will find him if
you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul."  v.29


RA
#4
TheProcess Wrote:Jesus gave false prophecy in the Olivet Discourse, and even a Christian apologist is willing to admit it!

Quote:“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side....

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined.

C.S. Lewis, The World’s Last Night

(I am starting this thread to discuss the issue of whether Jesus gave false prophecy, but I am not interested in Preterism here. I am willing to debate Preterism, but start a different thread for it.)

I suggest this post may be based on a lack of understanding of the biblical  uses of word 'generation' or by narrowing its definition to fit into some particular or specific belief bias or system.

Many who understand that the cited Scripture (Mark 13:30) speaks of later day occurrences, are puzzled as to what generation this verse is speaking of. However, something which is not well known is that there are several ways in which this word generation is used in scripture. There is, for example,the literal family generation, the family generation of evil, and the family generation of Christ. Three examples of very distinct applications of this word.

An important point worthy of note is that scripture has always dated itself by Patriarch fathers. Even to this day we date this way (probably without even giving it much thought). For whenever someone says that, "this is the year 2007," we are dating by the Patriarch reference, Christ (though not accurately). In other words, we are saying that we are living 2007 years after the birth of of Christ (AD, anno domini, or the year of our Lord). He, Jesus, is the Patriarch reference by which most of the world dates today; this generation being the generation of Jesus Christ.

A word of caution. C.S. Lewis is cited as the author of the opening post content. In my opinion a very poor and unreliable choice of a Christian Theologian.

(1) Predictability was not the trademark of C. S. Lewis. Nor was his an assembly-line theology. The liberal scholars of his day regarded him as a mousely Reepicheep in his attack upon their "assured results" of biblical criticism. Yet, because of his denial of biblical inerrancy, conservatives could not regard him as their knightly Dr. Ransom. When it came to New Testament historicity, Lewis siphoned off of his own expertise in the field of literary criticism to deny the Bultmannians free reign (or rein). Similarly his popularity as a BBC speaker and in spiraling book sales (especially children’s fantasies!) made him unpopular with some scholarly colleagues in the Oxbridge world.

Lewis navigated well within the orbit of orthodoxy when it came to regarding God as a trinity and Christ as deity. Here he stood in sync with the historic position of Christians since antiquity. Not only did he embrace the full supernaturalness of the Father and Son (while commenting only rarely upon the Spirit), but he accepted the bonafide existence of angels, demons, and Satan as invisible, supernatural personalities.

He refused to confine himself to one stated formulation of an Atonement theory, and he was Arminian on the extent of the Atonement and the question of whether salvation could be lost. Ironically, while he believed some Christians could lose their salvation, he believed some non-Christians could receive their final salvation.

As a member in good standing of the Anglican Church, Lewis accepted an Anglican position on purgatory and prayers for the dead, as well as practicing auricular confession of sins. He believed in a substantive reality to heaven and hell but was agnostic about matters such as the precise dimension and duration of hell.

While Lewis was not known for personal evangelism (for example, many of his students went through years of tutoring from him without ever learning that he was a Christian), ironically he became one of the most renowned international defenders of the Christian faith through his writings. Even when we disagree with some of his theological tenets, we are better off for his having forced us to grapple with his immense intellect. Like the local Christian congregation at Corinth, C. S. Lewis came up with some aberrant views and engaged in some heavy drinking, but he was never dull and the world has never been the same

(1) C.S Lewis's Theology; Somehwere between Ransom and Reepicheep by James Townsend.

David
#5
What "falsehood" is C.S. Lewis "admitting" that Jesus is "telling"?  CSL is talking about Jesus not knowing "that day and that hour."  The first paragraph is quoting the sayings of others ("we shall be told").
#6
I'm not sure what verses C.S. Lewis is referring to, but Jesus explains in simple terms when the end will come.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Once the gospel is preached to every nation, THEN the end will come and not before that. Obvious some places have never even heard of Jesus. China has just barely opened in borders to evangelists and North Korea won't let ANYONE in or out...not to mention the 10/40 window where very few missionaries are able to get to.
#7
Baptistic Wrote:What "falsehood" is C.S. Lewis "admitting" that Jesus is "telling"?

C.S. Lewis admits that Jesus gave false prophecy about his "Second Coming". Jesus was supposed to come back in the first century.

Quote:  CSL is talking about Jesus not knowing "that day and that hour."

Correct, but he is also talking about Jesus giving false prophecy.

Quote:  The first paragraph is quoting the sayings of others ("we shall be told").

Correct. C.S. Lewis goes on to endorse it.
#8
iamadoorknob Wrote:I'm not sure what verses C.S. Lewis is referring to

Matthew 24:34 and parallel verses.

Quote: but Jesus explains in simple terms when the end will come.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Once the gospel is preached to every nation, THEN the end will come and not before that.

This doesn't avoid the problem. It doesn't change the fact that Jesus predicted that his Second Coming would take place in the first century. If the gospel wasn't preached to the whole world, then that is just another false prophecy.

Quote: Obvious some places have never even heard of Jesus.

There is also the issue of what exactly was intended by the "whole world". And Paul says that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven.

Quote:If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister (Colossians 1:23 KJV)
#9
RayBurghen Wrote:In other words, when you see [the restoration of Israel, the "Fig Tree"]
realize, that Jerusalem didn't fall till AM 4122 (AD 70), which was 40 yrs. after Jesus was crucified. So he was speaking to that future generation; US. This happened in AD 1948; all the people alive at that time will not perish till all things that he mentioned are fulfilled.

This is one of the crazier interpretations that Christians use. In the plain meaning of the text, the fig tree example is used as an analogy for witnessing the events described in the Olivet Discourse.
#10
Brianroy Wrote:Try looking at the Greek for generation and take it from there.  Do your homework before making false accusations.


Matthew 24:34 What The Scholars Say
Mark Smith
http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Secon...024-34.htm


Six Bible Encyclopedias: genea.

(1) Genea refers to a period of time loosely defined as the time between a parent's prime and that of his child.... Those living at a given time in history are referred to as a generation.

(2) Matt. 24:34, genea means the generation or persons then living contemporary with Christ.

(3) Genea: It has the concept of the sum total of those born at the same time--contemporaries.

(4) Genea means the generation of persons then living contemporary with Christ.

(5) Matt. xxix.34, genea means the generation or persons then living contemporary with Christ.

(6) "The present generation" comprises all those who are now alive. Matt xxiv.34, some now living shall witness the event foretold. Our Lord uses the term to express a period of about 36 or 37 years... say about A.D. 70.


Sixteen Bible Commentaries: genea.

(1) ...verse 34 solemnly promises that Jesus will return while some of his contemporaries are still alive (a reprise of 16:28).... The gospel testimony provides strong support for this view: Jesus did not know all things.

(2) (This generation) can only with the greatest of difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke.

(3) "This generation" clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus.

(4) The statement in verse 34 is a difficult one. If generation is to be taken in this strict sense, then "all these things" must be limited to the events culminating in A.D. 70.... The majority of the best scholars today insist that generation be taken in its strictest sense.

(5) Jesus was quite certain that they would happen within the then living generation.

(6) [Matthew] probably believed, however, that the end could come before all of Jesus' hearers had died.

(7) Further, he [Jesus] insists that his words are infallible, and that they are more certain than the material universe itself....

(8) This verse recalls 16.28, and affirms that some of the disciples would live to see the Parousia. This would presuppose a relatively early date for the event.... Was Jesus in error in his prediction of the nearness of the end?

(9) In the Old Testament a generation was reckoned as forty years. This is the natural way to take verse 34.... He plainly stated in verse 34 that those events would take place in that generation.... One may, of course, accuse Jesus of hopeless confusion.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the end within the lifetime of his contemporaries.

(10) The hard fact still remains that if Jesus spoke the sayings of St. Mark xiii and St. Matthew xxiv... he misjudged the extent of his own knowledge and uttered a definite prediction which was not fulfilled.

(11) The Synoptists fell into the contradiction... of making Jesus declare at one moment that He did not know the time of the glorious Advent, and at another that it would infallibly happen within that generation.

(12) The affirmation that "all these things" will happen in this generation is clear, and there is no reason to alter the meaning of the word generation from its usual sense except a fear that the Scriptures may be in error if it is not so altered.

(13) Indeed, the fulfillment will take place before this present generation has passed away.

(14) Did Jesus expect the end within the lifetime of those who heard him speak? It seems quite certain that the early church so understood him.

(15) Matthew made it clear that some of the first disciples would live to see the Parousia.

(16) ... v. 34; there are those now alive, who shall see Jerusalem destroyed


Nine Christian Scholars & Authors: genea & Matthew 24:34.

(1)  Rev. Chuck Smith:    As a rule, a generation in the Bible lasts 40 years.

(2)  Dr. David Friedrich Strauss:    ...the word genea... was put to the torture....

(3) George Murry:    If the saying relates to the parousia, it sets the end time within the bounds of the first generation church. The phrase "this generation" should cause no difficulty for interpreters... It always signifies his [Jesus'] contemporaries.

(4)  Dr. Albert Schweitzer:    And He [Jesus] was to come, moreover, within the lifetime of the generation to which He had proclaimed the nearness of the Kingdom of God.

(5)  Gary DeMar:    No future generation of Jews is meant here.

(6)  Rev. Stuart Russell:    Next, our Lord sums up with an affirmation calculated to remove every vestige of doubt or uncertainty, "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." One would reasonably suppose that after a note of time so clear and express there could not be room for controversy. Our Lord Himself has settled the question. Ninety-nine persons in every hundred would undoubtedly understand His words as meaning that the predicted catastrophe would fall within the lifetime of the existing generation. Not that all would live to witness it, but that most or many would. There can be no question that this would be the interpretation which the disciples would place upon the words.... His coming... would come to pass before the existing generation had wholly passed away, and within the limits of their own lifetime.

(7)  Edward Gibbon:    [Members of the primitive church] were obliged to expect the second and glorious coming of the Son of Man in the clouds before that generation was totally extinguished which had beheld his humble condition upon the earth.

(8)  Rev. Milton Terry:    The words immediately preceding them show the absurdity of applying them to another generation than that of the apostles: "When ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors." The teaching of Jesus was emphatic beyond all rational question that that generation should not pass away before all those things of which they inquired should be fulfilled.

(9) Dr. William Lane Craig:    Two generations past the time of Jesus lands you in the 2nd Century.


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