Bible Options Bible Study Software
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Sin of Paul - washing the dirty laundry in public!
#11
(04-02-2012, 11:38 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(03-24-2012, 06:11 AM)shlomo Wrote: . . .
Circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat are the hard stuff!

The first (circumcision) is a physical change to your body that was extremely alien to the pagan world during the early part of the Christian Era. It is still alien in many countries today.

The second is Kashruth (the dietary laws). This applied to everything you eat, at home and out. It means that you can't eat in most restaurants or bring in most take-out food. It means that you need to buy more expensive food and maintain two sets of dishes, pots, pans, and cutlery for year-round use and another two sets for Passover use.

The last is Shabbat. This means from a little before sundown Friday to a little after sundown Saturday, you are not allowed to ride in a car, bus, or train; not even to go to Shul. This means you must be home from work and have the car parked prior to that time. It even means that you can't ride in most elevators! You are not allowed to turn on or off lights or light or unlight a stove or oven. You also cannot adjust the thermostat, turn on or off the television or radio, etc.

These are more difficult than the other things mentioned (if you could do them). Since the temple is not standing, you are not obligated to do the commandments associated with the temple at this time. This was always the understanding as there were periods long before the Christian era when the temple was not standing or not operational, or travel to Jerusalem was not feasible.

This is not the easy stuff!

You don't complete circumcision yourself, it should be done for you when you're a baby on the 8th day. That is easy. You don't even remember your circumcision, there cannot be anything hard about it.

The dietary laws you mention are completely rabbinical, and the rabbi's make it hard if anything. Torah Dietary laws are easy. You don't eat the foods mentioned in the Tanach. You're learn under rabbinical talmudic Jews, you're not a Karaite.

Shabbat is easy, again, due to your talmudic rabbi's who make stuff up, they've made it difficult.

The Temple not standing made no difference to the Priests, Levites, and People at the time of Nehemiah, and Ezra. So how can rabbi's using the Tanach say any different?



Circumcision was very difficult for Roman world. It went against the paganistic grain of Roman culture. It was not up to Paul to abolish or in any way waive this requirement. It was also not up to him to waive the biblical dietary laws such as the eating of pork; rabbinic extensions not withstanding. It was certainly also not permissible to change the day of Shabbat (from Saturday to Sunday) or change to midnight to midnight rather than sundown to sundown.
#12
(03-16-2012, 02:55 PM)MessianicJew Wrote: Why are we told to only keep the easy stuff like circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat is always mentioned that we have to keep but not the more tedious aspects of the law? Such as burnt offerings, burning oil continually through our generations, or how about for a son, or for a daughter, the wife is to bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove during the purification after child birth. I NEVER hear this mentioned. Why is that?

Messiah fulfilling the laws and the Prophets as Jesus claimed is a reason we are no longer under the law. In any case, Jews today talk like they're under the law, but how many laws they actually keep is as if they're really not anyway. And then they make up excuses why they don't have to keep certain laws...and the one they do keep are just the easy ones....why is that? How many laws do you keep?

See, that is the thing. You keep laws out of obedience, but you will never know on your death bed if you've been obedient enough. If you keep 50 laws, your neighbor keeps 1, and another 75. Which of you gets to live in the life to come? You don't know.

So big deal if we don't keep circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat when you don't even burn offerings...


I wonder when you will realize that your arguments make no sense? Say, for the sake of it, that you are right. All Jews are in the wrong because they only follow the easy laws... how does that make it okay for you to not follow any at all?

Why is it okay for you to not make sacrifices, but it isn't okay for us?
Who made the call on which laws you should follow(none) and had the authority to go over Moses' word? Even the man you deem the greatest of all time was circumcised, yet he never offered an animal sacrifice.

Why instead of taking example from Jesus, do you take example from people talking about how great he was without ever having even met someone who has met him?
#13
(04-02-2012, 11:38 AM)MessianicJew Wrote:
(03-24-2012, 06:11 AM)shlomo Wrote: . . .

Circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat are the hard stuff!

The first (circumcision) is a physical change to your body that was extremely alien to the pagan world during the early part of the Christian Era. It is still alien in many countries today.

The second is Kashruth (the dietary laws). This applied to everything you eat, at home and out. It means that you can't eat in most restaurants or bring in most take-out food. It means that you need to buy more expensive food and maintain two sets of dishes, pots, pans, and cutlery for year-round use and another two sets for Passover use.

The last is Shabbat. This means from a little before sundown Friday to a little after sundown Saturday, you are not allowed to ride in a car, bus, or train; not even to go to Shul. This means you must be home from work and have the car parked prior to that time. It even means that you can't ride in most elevators! You are not allowed to turn on or off lights or light or unlight a stove or oven. You also cannot adjust the thermostat, turn on or off the television or radio, etc.

These are more difficult than the other things mentioned (if you could do them). Since the temple is not standing, you are not obligated to do the commandments associated with the temple at this time. This was always the understanding as there were periods long before the Christian era when the temple was not standing or not operational, or travel to Jerusalem was not feasible.

This is not the easy stuff!

You don't complete circumcision yourself, it should be done for you when you're a baby on the 8th day. That is easy. You don't even remember your circumcision, there cannot be anything hard about it.

The dietary laws you mention are completely rabbinical, and the rabbi's make it hard if anything. Torah Dietary laws are easy. You don't eat the foods mentioned in the Tanach. You're learn under rabbinical talmudic Jews, you're not a Karaite.

Shabbat is easy, again, due to your talmudic rabbi's who make stuff up, they've made it difficult.

The Temple not standing made no difference to the Priests, Levites, and People at the time of Nehemiah, and Ezra. So how can rabbi's using the Tanach say any different?
Hashem gave the torah to the Jews; not anybody else! This means he left the rabbis in charge. They interpret on the authority of Hashem, even if you don't agree with their rulings.
#14
To Messianic
Quote:So big deal if we don't keep circumcision, Kosher, and Shabbat when you don't even burn offerings...
Messianic, here you show again that you don't get the Tenach at all. We don't do offerings connected to the Temple. Symply because the Temple is not there and we can't do it according to how HaShem discribed it. This has nothing to do with other commandments that we are still able to do, and all Jews should do in all generations.

To Dantech
Quote:Who made the call on which laws you should follow(none) and had the authority to go over Moses' word? Even the man you deem the greatest of all time was circumcised, yet he never offered an animal sacrifice.
Where is it written that Jesus never offered an animal sacrifice? Maybe he did. Even Paul did way after Jesus death, when the Temple was still around.
I guess if Jesus had not done so, then there would have been much more questions by the Pharisees or Saducees etc. with good legel arguements why Jesus was outside the law of Moses.
#15
(03-15-2012, 04:56 PM)shlomo Wrote: The essential problem with Saint Paul is that he took an essentially internal Jewish fight to the non-Jewish world. In other words he washed the dirty linen in public!

It seems that he told people that they didn't need to be circumcised, didn't need to keep kosher, didn't need to keep Shabbat the way Jews have always kept it, etc. It's true that these laws apply only to Jews. However, if one was added to the covenant (as some Christians teach), then one would need to follow these laws. These laws are a sign of the covenant for all times, the torah is very clear on that.

I hope it's not too late to get in here, a lot has been said already but I'll react on the original post.
I think shlomo has a very interesting point that should be taken seriously and it would be a pitty if talk would revert to merely pointing out the hypocricy of those who claim to keep the Law.

The apostle Paul's situation, the early church's situation, should however, also be taken seriously.
"These laws are a sign of the covenant for all times, the torah is very clear on that." is easily said.
What was happening in the first century AD, however, was of such a profound nature that the question had to be asked: What of it?

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

If then God gave the same gift to them (uncircumcised) as he gave to us (circumcised) when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.

Now, all of a sudden, there are so many experts on the Law, all of them ready to correct and lead the way, but where were they then?
Probably where they are today also; everywhere, except amongst the living.


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)